Aired September 06-07, 2016. Joe Atwill and Jan Irvin to discuss counterintelligence infiltration into the so-called "alt-media" community.
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Thanks Jan & Joe for this episode. There are some people that I discovered on your site that somehow had links to Tragedy and Hope, like Mark Passio or Frater X. I believe that they are sincere, but as they also take inspiration from people like Maxwell, Tsarion, McKenna or Crowley (with caveats), saying that we should learn the occult to fight dark magicians with white magick, I wonder what you think about their work?
Thanks!
Bests,
Camille.
HI, Camille,
Early on in the show I interviewed those people and worked with them (like T&H). I no longer work with any of them for obvious reasons.
You’ll want to read this:
https://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2015/07/18/spin-job-the-odd-case-of-richard-andrew-grove/
And see this:
https://webbrain.com/brainpage/brain/6FBA86B0-0C57-9FCA-5CF9-D742DA541AAA#-6883
I have seen Passio take my work and spin it time and time again. His house is still filled with Satanic shit, too… and for someone that’s a “former” Satanist, that seems quite a bit odd.
You should study these types to learn HOW they manipulate you. Also, they can’t only tell lies, or they expose themselves too easily. Even if you only get 5% truth, sometimes that’s enough to change your whole perspective. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
If anyone is throwing out the baby with the bath water it’s you. Any study of the occult or beyond the 5 sense illusion is now mind control now?? yeah right mate. Seems the trivium has put you into a left brain imbalance.
You’re incredibly arrogant and think you’re above everyone else just because you’ve “discovered” how “evil” psychedelics are. So many of your connections are questionable, clutching at straws and simple guilt by association, a repeated fallacy by fallacy know it all Jan.
Of course the CIA studied these substances and used them in their agenda, they are powerful tools. Neutral tools for good or evil.
You wouldn’t even be close to your level of understanding if it wasn’t for these substances opening your mind in the first place, and now you think everyone is an idiot for taking them?
Just because something puts in you a suggestible state doesn’t automatically make it mind control.
It’s the information people decide to take in that is the mind control. Right brain imbalance and gullibility, if abused. It makes people susceptible to sophistry if they’re none critical thinkers. Thinking it’s all love and light and blindly following new gurus.
But they can be powerful tools in healing, creativity and opening the mind. Someone can still be very traditionalist and family oriented yet still partake in these substances.
Also, Mark has a skull in his room, which he acknowledged on his radio show, is there to remind him that time is short. That’s not evidence for anything. You’re being child. I think you’re going to regret many of your statements in the coming years. You’re burning many bridges.
Um, how do you study something beyond what you call “5 sense illusion”? That’s pretty silly, as you can’t sense it to study it. It’s NON-sense. That’s why it’s called NON-sense because you can’t SENSE it. Yes, mysticism is the tool of tyrants.
You should really study the trivium. http://www.triviumeducation.com
Where do I claim to be above anyone? That’s nonsense. I simply publish the findings. What connections are questionable? You provide nothing. We said in this episode to just quote it and present it. Is that too much to ask?
How are they used for good, vs. evil? You don’t say.
They didn’t open my mind. The trivium did. That’s how we figured this out. I certainly don’t take them anymore. I wasted enough time.
Obviously no other information about this has been available for the last 70 years, except the bullshit books published by the CIA and intel community. So what other information were they taking in that they couldn’t or could get? Did you read my Spies in Academic Clothing article? You should.
Obviously if the information is not at all available, and all of that which is avialable is sophistry, then they can’t get it without checking the primaries. That’s all we do is verify the data. You should try it, rather than getting so upset.
How do these tools heal, exactly? Who’s talking about a skull in someone’s room? You mean the house full of Satanic stuff? That’s more than a skull. You’re joking, right? What benefit does someone get from them and for family? In my case, using the trivium and critical thinking and having a family far outweighed the benefits from the drugs. You seem to be upset that we’re exposing all of the lies and intelligence behind the entire counterculture. But you should ask yourself why finding out the truth causes you so much cognitive dissonance.
What statements would I regret? Bridges with liars and intel agents and satanists? So what? Why don’t you worry about your own bridges? Why are you so concerned about mine? That’s a little strange don’t you think?
>Um, how do you study something beyond what you call “5 sense illusion”?
>That’s pretty silly, as you can’t sense it to study it. It’s NON-sense.
Lets start with the “sense of balance”, perhaps the most obvious sense that children are denied education of focusing only on “the five senses”. When people’s sense of balance is affected in some way the result is very measurable as they frequently injure themselves.
Lets also consider the “sense of time” where one can accurately guess the current time without looking at a watch, and the sense of body image where one can close their eyes thus denying themselves of the “sense of sight” at yet very effectively point at object around them when asked.
The “sense of direction” is studied in mice by placing them into a lazy susan setup with electrodes in the correct area of the brain and then rotating the “preparation” (as its call in animal research) until their brain is aligned with the earths magnetic field and the neurons in the area of the electrode fire. Move the electrode slightly and the alignment angle will change. This is how it was proven that mice have in internal compass and thus the issue of how mice navigate without obvious “common reference frame markers” was resolved. Thus studies extend to birds as well. Magnetite in the brain was proven to be the way in which the neurons detect the earth magnetic field angle relative to the brains orientation to it.
Google “How many senses do humans have” and you will find peer reviewed scientific literature listing as many as a couple dozen “senses”. And a foundation sense of the entire simulation industry, the sense of linear acceleration (via the tissue in the air sinus behind the nose), still does not appear in any list I have found.
Going back far into history these “other” senses were refered to as “the divine senses”. The critical difference between “the 5 senses” and “the divine senses” is the common reference frame (collectivism) and mans ability to manipulate these senses, versus the indivudal reference frame and mans INability to affect these senses (thus they were treated as “of God”).
As one becomes aware of the “divine senses” one has no choice but to move away from collective common reference “authority” and recognize something far greater. This is why the like of Socrates and Aristotle seeded ideas that form a barrier between the common reference frame senses (“objective reality”) and the individual divine senses (“subjective reference frame”). And to be clear “nothing new under the sun” I believe Socrates and Aristotle stole the scam for those before them, just as Freud stole and used the teaching of the Kabbalah from the Egyptians.
Can the individual reference frame, subjective reality, become and “opiate to the masses”? Sure can, just look at people die as they walk in front of cars playing pokeman go. Yes there is a tremendous danger here, but its the complementary danger of rejectiing the divine senses and beleiving the lie that we only have 5 senses and thus allowing others to control you through those senses.
If you do not like the use of the word “divine” in divine senses that is fine, pick whatever word works for you. I only use that word as I find it’s use in history going back beyond Christianity. I found the use of this word in the Vedic texts. That said, I would also suggest the focus on the material world and the spiritual world, the unity of the two as one, is the “religious” way of pointing out this issue of respecting that which is common/worldly/5 senses with that which is personal individual/spiritual/non 5 sense reality. Or more directly, the importance of remaining in a state of balance between the two.
The fact that I can’t prove my subjective reality to you means nothing. A Bruce Lee quote comes to mind, a wonderful statement of INDIVIDUALISM that is the core of this very issue, for as we go beyond the collective reference frame of the 5 sense individuality is what we discover:
“I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.”
– Bruce Lee
Now lets apply that quote to the religion of science and return to the issue of Magnetite in the brain. An easy google search will reveal the human brain contains an enormous amount of Magnetite. And yet the religion of science states humans do not have a sense of direction, BECAUSE IS HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.
So you choose to accept what scientism tells you you are, and that is all that you are until they say differently, That is your chose Jan …..
Which leave Socrates and Aristotle laughing in their graves, as humans now perceive the requirement to use the 5 sense to prove the divine senses which is impossible ….. This is the very checkmate they and others have desired to deny discovery of self.
Um, balance is verified by VISION, when we say… look up… time by the sun, or a clock, etc. But you’re discussing things that you can’t look at with any senses… so nice try with your straw man arguments. I wish you luck though. You may want to begin studying some critical thinking: http://www.triviumeducation.com
Your senses and asking who what where when why and how are how you gather data. What you’re arguing for is the ultimate ignorance and using a bunch of nonsense spin to sell it. Since your senses bother you so much, stop listening to my show, stop posting here, and leave. Go sit and meditate in a bubble of ignorance, incapable of trusting your own 5 senses to discover anything. Good luck in your Roger Rabbit land.
The sense of balance is actually totally independent from sight. To say that balance is verfied by sight is totally Non sense. By your logic blind people would lack balance. It is actually refered to as the vestibular system that is responsible for giving us balance and yes technically it is totally independent from the other five senses which proves that we do indeed have more than 5 senses. Proprioception is another sense that is not incuded in “the five” senses that is also totally independent from the other senses. So, I just provided 2 legitimate examples of additional senses that humans do indeed foster yet the trivium only recognizes 5 senses. Look, I am not knocking the trivium, it has its place in regardes to basic logical problem solving but should not be touted as the “end all be all” for deriving a rock solid conclusion.
You still haven’t named all your senses… we’re waiting.
“You still haven’t named all your senses… we’re waiting.”
You might have my confused with the other poster, Christopher. I do agree with some of the points he made and wanted to elaborate a bit more. The 2 senses I referenced are indeed senses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
But even if you don’t want to acknowledge them as legitimate senses, I do have a couple points on the “5 senses” that you do acknowledge that I would like you to address if possible. So basically, the trivium method implies that “If you can not hear, taste, smell, feel or see it, then it does not exist”.
Lets look at sight first. “The visible spectrum is the portion of the electromagnetic spectrum that is visible to the human eye. Electromagnetic radiation in this range of wavelengths is called visible light or simply light. A typical human eye will respond to wavelengths from about 390 to 700 nm.[1] In terms of frequency, this corresponds to a band in the vicinity of 430–770 THz.”-wikipedia In a nut shell, we can see about 0.0035% of the electromagnetic spectrum. Does that mean that the other 99.999 percent of the magnetic spectrum does not exist? Based on your logic, yes. Same can be said for atomic and sub atomic particles. Both too small to observe with the human eye. Do you deny their existence? Does a subaudible tone not exist because it can not be heard by the human ear without the aid of technology. Which leads to another point, what is your opinion on information obtained through technology specifically technology that enhances the “5 Senses” such as Telescopes, microscopes oscilloscopes etc. How does this effect the trivium method? Do you acknowledge the information collected by these devices? When the trivium was initially developed such technologies where pretty much non existent. It seems to me that if everybody went strictly off the Trivium Method, we would be stuck in a state of arrested development.
I think you’re confusing tools that we can use to see those things vs. magical not being able to see them at all. Having infrared binoculars is not extra senses beyond our 5. We have tools we can use to verify such things which are repeatable. There are things we can use tools to measure. Let’s not make a non-sequitur about how these are senses. Thanks.
Jan, You totally miss the point. The point is that there are things that exist outside our five senses that are legitimate and not so called magic as you want to call it. This is basically the point that Jay Dyer made during the last interview you had with him. Infrared is one example of many. Infrared has to be processed through technology in in a very specific manor to be perceived by the human Sense(s) and that goes for the vast majority of the electromagnetic spectrum. So actually yes, Infrared is beyond our five senses. If we need sophisticated technology to decode infrared so we can perceive it, then yes, it exists outside the capabilities of our senses.
Hi Jan, thanks for your reply. I checked the documentation. Yes indeed Grove’s “myth” is seriously destroyed, it certainly makes him look like a crook, but calling him “counter intelligence” right away sounds a little bit far-fetched. We could argue that it makes him corruptible, but being corruptible doesn’t mean corrupted until proven guilty. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he were, but I need to see the evidence. For the moment he is at least a crook-like minded person who has cynically moved from a domain to another to make a living out of it, and at best curing his ego scars of his previous misadventure by make the Big Lebowski-like employee of the year blooming into the “white knight of truth” against those he couldn’t blackmail successfully. An ego-gratifying role that he could take seriously by exposing real truth. Narcissistic persons are good at attracting authentic good stuff just to make themselves look good (and can be very picky to remain hidden behind a solid wall of truth). So I wouldn’t throw everything linked to T&H with the bath water.
You say they that they plagiarize your work, I believe you. But I also see that your website http://www.triviumeducation.com is linked from theirs, they are not hiding their sources, and maybe on other works they simply forgot to mention where they take their inspiration from (or their ego unconsciously prevented them to, that’s wrong, but IMHO it doesn’t make it “counter-intelligence”). Why don’t you link them to you in The Brain as “inspired by”? Same with the link to http://www.triviumeducation.com, this is a direct connection between you and T&H. But this would make you look being part of the “alt-media counter-intelligence” circle :-p That’s a problem with The Brain, to tool is great, but it should have some color code or something to see the nature of the connection between entities.
I took a look at the persons that are connected to “alt-media counter-intelligence”, and about half of it are empty of resources. You probably have it in mind, but for the average reader it looks like a postulate that has to be eventually proven later on. According to the Trivium, the link is the rhetoric, so it should be the last information provided. The content which that is the grammar should be entered first, then if the logic deducted from the content reveals a connection, the rhetoric (the link) can be placed. What do you think? I’m not saying that the links are wrong, but if they are not backed up they can attack you on that, seems a bit rushed. As it is now, it looks like a reversed Trivium, starting with an arbitrary pre-established postulate. It looks good on screen at first, but if you zoom in it IMHO harms the rest of you excellent work.
About Passio, I don’t see anything against him. Well, he still has links and pictures with his past, but so do I. Understanding what is going on in the world has cut many relations I had in the past, most people don’t want to hear. But not all, some were convinced by what I told them, and some make fun of me as the crazy “conspiracy theorist”. But I still see them, I work with music band that are direct products of “counter culture”, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were pictures of me with them at BBQ parties where they make “devil horns” with their fingers, with me drinking a beer in the background. Because that’s pretty much all I see in the Passio’s pictures in The Brain. Same with his name still associated with the management of his previous satanic music band. My name is still associated with projects I have distanced myself from. This can be explained by lazyness (have to make a meeting with everybody present and unanimously vote to change the president), convenience, not wanting to bring hot topics with people who were/are your friends, etc. So you just leave it as it is, and sign some administrative paperwork from time to time as the figurehead when needed. This doesn’t make me an “alt-media counter-intelligence” asset. You say that his home is filled with satanic stuff, I believe you. But, well, he did let a lazer-eyed person like you enter his house, scanning with scrutiny every details. IMHO it would be a bit clumsy as an “alt-media counter-intelligence” agent who needs to protect his cover :-p If he has let you enter it was maybe he simply because he felt that he has nothing to hide, and that you would understand that as a former satanist he still owns some stuff related to his past, as a collection of occult stuff (in which he is still involved), by personal attachment, fetishism, or laziness to get rid of it. Passio knows well the meaning of this stuff, and the more you learn about it (as I do), the less scary it becomes, the less uncomfortable you are to have it next to you. I just ordered Crowley’s Magick by curiosity, I’ll not hide it, I’ll put it on the shelve like the rest. This doesn’t make me a satanist. Passio doesn’t seem to be uncomfortable at all with this stuff because he is familiar with it, but IMHO he knows how to make the difference between right and wrong. We can see on the pictures that he is not wearing any satanic stuff nor making “devil horns” with his fingers unlike his friends do. He is wearing his “Flower of Live” talisman that he is always wearing, it is a positive symbol, nothing satanic here. Seeing that he is not only wearing it for conferences but in everyday life tends to reassure me instead of categorized him as a satanist. I am more doubtful about his story of becoming a Church of Satan whistleblower because he had bad conscience. Like in the Grove case, most “whistleblowers” decide to blow because they are hurt by the system first, and decide to take revenge against it. We have former Freemason/Zionist here in France named Jacob Cohen who openly admits that he decided to turn against Freemasons because they screwed him (I’ve made and interview of him in English, but it doesn’t cover this Freemasonry part much, check “Jacob Cohen Documenterview” on YouTube if you are curious about his case). I wouldn’t be surprised if Passio turned against them because of being hurt by them first, I remember he saying to them “I’ll expose you!”, to which they laughed back at him. This can be understood, it’s easier to critic a system when you don’t benefit from it. As Mark Twain said “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends upon his not understanding it.”. Sounds more like revenge that desire of justice, but I can be wrong. It’s more probably a mix between the two, you do justice for yourself and others, pretending it’s only for others. But it might be more sincere than that as these ordeals are challenging people’s ego, make them grow and raise their level of consciousness and empathy. BTW, Passio often states that he’s only interested in music, that making conferences is a burden for him, “I don’t even want to be here” he repeats. IMHO that’s not the best attitude to have a credible cover as a wanabe “alt-media counter-intelligence” asset :-p He probably takes help from T&H because they cleanly edit, publish and promote his work for him. And not caring much more about it.
But looking at the past and pointing fingers is not the most interesting, IMHO the most important about Passio are the solutions he proposes, what do you think about using White Magick to fight back these black magicians? The power they have accumulated proves the efficiency of these tools, isn’t it a good idea (if not our only chance to be up to the task) to give it a try?
I’ve checked Maxwell’s entry on The Brain, I couldn’t open the zip files, but it seems that it’s missing this nugget: https://chaukeedaar.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/lucas_eisner_maxwell.jpg But one could argue that whether Maxwell is an “alt-media counter-intelligence”, black/white magician, or not, I would have hire him for advise if I were a Hollywood occultist like Lucas.
I noticed that Gnostic Media is listed in the show notes of the “20/20 Hindsight” video, hosted on the Corbett Report channel. That’s from Corbett’s website that is discovered your work. Are you still in touch with him? I noticed that him and his circle (Sibel Edmonds & co.) have distanced themselves as well from Secker and Redmond. I had doubt about those two as well, especially Redmond’s incapacity of looking to anything related close or far to Zionism. Red flag was raised after this show they made on BFP (links point to my comment, the show is above): http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2015/06/02/disinfowars-with-tom-secker-the-disinfowar-on-terror/comment-page-1/#comment-19543
I understand your frustration about the “well funded” T&H website, but despite having been terminated because of being a bad spin salesman, Grove still has more business skill than the average “alt-media” host, IMHO it can be explained this way. But indeed “Hurt & Rescue” strategy cynically reminds of “Tragedy & Hope”, it’s a bit to much “in your face” (predictive programming technique, or Karma for the black magician). But it can still be just crook-like business as usual, I wouldn’t be surprised if a Big Lebowski-like employee and wanabe blackmailer like Grove made some shady deals to get some funds. Maybe some peoples or interests are sleeping in T&H, before taking over an entity you have to quietly infiltrate it, as long as these supposed interests/people did not take action, the content provided can remain legit. Again, don’t throw the baby, water and bathtub at once, but keep an eye open 🙂
Keep up the good work, I’ll donate again as soon as I can,
Bests,
Camille.
I went to some of Mark Passios’ presentations in Philly. I just didn’t care for his not thanking me when I bought him a beer. Just saying.
Well then. He must be a disinfo agent. Its finally settled.
Cathy O’Brian is alt-counterinelligence, am I reading “the brain” right? In your OP/research you find her whole story is fabricated?
Hey Jan, why do you think Tom Secker is an “agent”?
Haven’t been around for a long time. So long that I actually couldn’t remember the name of this site or the name of its host and had to dig for my downloads to get back here.
Previously, I have been in varied paroxysms of both appreciation and irritation with Mr. Irvin’s genenral (at)tack but, coming back ‘fresh’, so to speak, I recognise him for the first time as an agent provocateur you can take whatever whichway. The best way would be to APPRECIATE him without necessarily validating him or seeking to be validated by him (now THERE would be a waste of time! :P)
Jan is making you think. He wants to make you buy some product which will help you to think better but in the meantime, he’s making you think. He’s PROVOKING your critical instincts. That you may both agree and disagree with the cut of his jib is only part of the game that is worth playing.
It’s all good.
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