Remedy Roundtable 02- with Joe Atwill, Bill Joslin, Ryan Gilmore and Jan Irvin – “Common Ground” – #207

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GM_207
This episode is our second edition of Remedy Roundtable 02, titled: Common Ground.
 
Released on Thursday, August 14, 2014, and was recorded on Tuesday, August 12, 2014.

 
In this series we have an international team with the Joe Atwill – the author of Caesear’s Messiah, who’s been on many times before; Bill Joslin from Canada – whom we introduced a few weeks ago with our video Meditation: Deconstructing Nonsense; and also Ryan Gilmore – host of Inside Out Asylum, in the UK. Both Joe and I are in Southern California.
Joe Atwill’s websites:
www.caesarsmessiahdoc.com
http://caesarsmessiah.com/
http://caesarsmessiah.com/blog/

Ryan Gilmore’s website:
http://insideoutasylum.com/

Trivium Education:
www.triviumeducation.com

Notes for this episode:

Christine Lagarde speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw

http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/steve-quayle-imf-head-christine-lagardes-occult-numerology-signalling-a-crisis-of-biblical-proportions-70-dollar-devaluation-on-20-july-2014/

From Socioecohistory.wordpress.com:

“7” references:
1:22 – “Now I’m going to test your numerology skills by asking you to think about the magic seven”
1:34 – “Most of you will know that seven is quite a number
2:24 – “2014, you drop the zero, fourteen, two times, seven”
4:08 – “It will mark the 70th anniversary, 70th anniversary, drop the zero, seven, of the Bretton Woods Conference that actually gave birth to the IMF” (7 + 0 = 7)
4:22 – “And it will be the 25th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall, 25th..” (2 + 5 = 7)
4:38 – “It will also mark the 7th anniversary of the financial market jietters”
5:08 – “After those seven miserable years, weak and fragile”
5:14 – “We have seven strong years”
5:43 – “Now I don’t know if the G7 will have anything to do with it” (G is also the 7th letter of the alphabet)

“2014” references:
1:18 – “The global economy and what we should expect for 2014″
2:19 – “So if we think about 2014″
2:24 – “2014, you drop the zero, fourteen, two times, seven”
3:54 – “So 2014 will be a milestone and hopefully a magic year in may respects”
5:05 – “So my hope and my wish for 2014″

Maserati Commercial:
http://www.tinfoilhattime.com/public_html/tinfoilhattime/2014/05/14/is-this-strange-maserati-commercial-an-illuminati-message/

Scientist Working on Gov’t Ebola Drug Joked About Culling Population with GMO Virus
http://youtu.be/awuwG9corF8?t=10m25s

Entire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb0p9BDZN2U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awuwG9corF8

Terence McKenna audio clip:

http://youtu.be/_IO7pHD3X9M?t=1h11m5s

“The Mushroom said. […] But since you brought it up. […] I would be very interested in seeing a set of social policies, tax incentives, medical policies, insurance policies, put in place to limit male birth. […] This is the way to feminize the human race. […] I’m a feminist. […] AS A HUMANIST I advocate a reduction in male birth.”
~ Terence McKenna

See also:
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/how-darwin-huxley-and-the-esalen-institute-launched-the-2012-and-psychedelic-revolutions-and-began-one-of-the-largest-mind-control-operations-in-history/

Cryptography

http://www.gnosticmedia.com/kristov-atlas-anonymous-bitcoin-cryptography-safety-203/
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/kristov-atlas-interview-pt-2-anonymous-bitcoin-cryptography-online-safety-204/

G. Edward Griffin / Yuri Besmenov video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srw3YSda1XY

Alan Watts: Double Bind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsI04FhF418
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXX8XaZ8vV4

Gregory Bateson: Double Bind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

http://pressblog.uchicago.edu/2012/06/13/the-cybernetic-brain-gregory-bateson-zen-schizophrenia-and-captain-beefheart.html

“This, then, is where Eastern spirituality entered Bateson’s approach to psychiatry, as a means of expanding the discursive field beyond the modern self. And here it is interesting to bring in tow more English exiles to California, Alan Watts and Aldous Huxley. Watts was a very influential commentator on and popularizer of Zen Buddhism in the United States in the 1950s, and he was also a consultant on Bateson’s schizophrenia project.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vONKWdfj_hg

“Knowledge seems so utterly nonsense to me”
~ Jiddu Krishnamurti

Aldous Huxley Letter to Alan Watts:

To Alan Watts:
In regard to research, I think we should make it quite clear that there is no intention of undertaking any micro-physiological investigations of the nerves, electric potentials etc, and that what we are interested in is the ‘molar’ phenomena of the human organism as a whole.
17 October, 1952

A Molar Approach to Social Knowing

Abstract
Exemplary research in social cognition and perception is examined. It is suggested that a singular focus on internal, intraindividual cognitive and perceptual processes is not sufficiently broad to account adequately for the spectrum of social knowing phenomena. A more molar approach to social knowing than can be found in contemporary work in social cognition and perception is advocated. More specifically, it is suggested that work on molecular cognitive and perceptual processes will help elucidate basic social knowing phenomena only when such processes are meaningfully tied to the social contexts in which they, occur and to ongoing social behavior.
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/6/4/574.abstract

Studying phenomena at the “molar” level is a term used in behavioral science (e.g. behaviorism). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism

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  37 comments for “Remedy Roundtable 02- with Joe Atwill, Bill Joslin, Ryan Gilmore and Jan Irvin – “Common Ground” – #207

  1. forky
    August 15, 2014 at 11:00 am

    Howdy Folks,

    Wonderful informative discussion and I enjoyed the media inserts, thanks so much for being here guys. About that IMF lady… She first acknowledged another woman “Angelica” and then mentioned the “Lunar (feminine) New Year”. Also, the numerology thing is well understood in new age circles, so it would seem that she was appealing to “The New Man”(or wo-man), so to speak. In other words, the societal new age slave who has adopted the U.N. religion. You know, the “evolved” ones…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Man_%28utopian_concept%29
    I didn’t know anything about the code predictions though, thanks for discussing that.

    Thanks for the suggestion of stocking sardines Jan. I prefer tuna but if food was very scarce, I would probably prefer sardines for the nutritional reasons that you explained. A small can of sardines could also be a valuable barter item.

    Another really good practice is to become familiar with food dehydration. It’s pretty darn easy to dry your own food (even meats!) and there are plans out there for solar models too. I really love using my dried goods in soups and other dishes. They keep for about 2 years or more with no refrigeration and use very little storage space. Very economical too. You buy big when you find a good sale at your local market and dry it up for later. Before (or after) your weekly grocery supply of celery begins to wilt and the bananas bruise, tomatoes etc., toss em in the dehydrator instead of the trash can and rehydrate later. It’s an entertaining hobby too. If you have a garden or fruit trees, your homegrown produce can be enjoyed year round. You would need a decent water supply in times of emergency but that’s a different issue. There are a number of good options for that too. You could also eat dried veggies dry and they’re still quite tasty. Raisins are a good example of this. Some people would be very surprised to find out how flavorful dried food can be, cooked or uncooked.

    I try to keep a supply of rice and beans too and I always try to sprout my beans before cooking them. The great thing about the beans is once sprouted, you don’t even need to cook them if fuel is limited*. It’s kind of like eating peanuts. Soak them in water for maybe 6 hours then drain and rinse. Put a loose cover over them for maybe 12 hours, keeping them in a dark place. When little “tails” appear they’re ready. Rinse well before eating. Sprouted beans have up to 12 times more available nutrients than dry ones.

    Bon Appetit,

    Forky

  2. Ralph Davis
    August 18, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    What an ambitious two-part conversation. Really daunting in scope and complexity. Beyond the dogged research, painstaking documentation and cross referencing establishing the duplicitous intent of these brilliant social engineers, is your ability, Jan, to assemble such a complimentary panel capable of humor amidst the horror. Kudos. Joe Atwill, in particular, demonstrated great perceptual and articulative strength in the mix.

    And I see no reason why you should feel the slightest need to defend yourself from transparent characters like Joe Rogan. You’re as solidly based as possible on the strength of documentation for your contentions. It strikes me a bit ironic that despite your familiarity with manipulative and/or delusional personalities that you’d let them affect you defensively in the least. Your work speaks for itself and by its nature will bring out the dead.

    One desirable thing that occurred to me in the course of discussion, consistent with your Brain construct, was acknowledgment and/or inclusion of related work to better and expeditiously establish continuity of historical context with the segmented period structure of the Wasson/MKUltra era which you’ve detailed exhaustively. Even if viewed with benefit of hindsight as being incomplete or mistaken in part, the work of Dr. John Coleman, A. Ralph Epperson and Carroll Quigley, to name a few, could arguably flesh-out the hierarchy and historical context overlapping the main period of your concentration to great benefit.

    Also, since you apparently have substantial experience with psychotropics, would you direct to where you’ve discussed your experience in the past, if you have done that? The references to it that you’ve made have intrigued by what you’ve appeared to conclude about their relative worth. While there seems to be some anecdotal homogeneity in perceptual quality of consciousness experience, there are also others, including some my own, that vary profoundly on a basis of compound, purity and dosage.

    As you are no doubt also aware, stage and setting away from the influence of mundane human concerns, when proper consideration is given to appropriate environment and companionship, ingestion effects become intrinsically life altering well beyond mere manifestations of subconscious constructs, mystical beings and symbology or any overriding influence of human cultural orientation. Maybe this wasn’t your experience but it would be interesting to hear a more detailed account. LSD is no party drug, imo.

    I should note here, too, that your Astrotheology & Shamanism is truly a marvelously constructed text of immeasurable value to anyone so interested. Very impressive, Jan. Let’s see another in vision kind.

  3. Devon Gibbons
    August 19, 2014 at 5:33 pm

    Regarding morality, I thought people might find good use of these two pieces; they argue that morality is objective, based on the expansion of first principles:

    Treatise on Morality (30 minute video)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk

    Universally Preferable Behavior: A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics (130 page book offered for free by Stefan Molyneux)
    https://freedomainradio.com/old-free/books/FDR_2_PDF_UPB.pdf

    Stefan hosts a podcast show at freedomainradio.com that I highly recommend as well :-)

    • August 19, 2014 at 6:59 pm

      Thanks for the citations! Familiar with Stefan. Was on his show once years ago.

    • forky
      August 26, 2014 at 1:35 pm

      Hey Devon,

      I just recently discovered Stefan Molyneux’s podcasts, like since a month ago or so. I was going to ask if he’s CIA or not (haha) but now I don’t have to. I’ve been very impressed by his shows, seen maybe half a dozen of them now – wow… My favorite thus far is the newer release on Che Guevara. I was very curious about Che and Stefan drew a vivid picture of what that beast really was. The one about “TRAYVON!” and Zimmerman was a real eye opener too. Also saw Gandhi, MLK and Abe Lincoln – oh yeah, and also caught the one about Robin Williams, which actually I found “iffy”. I think that one is still up in the air but I still really enjoyed Stefan’s perspective. Maybe he’s right…

      I also watched most of the Morality vid. Good argument, I still have to sink my teeth into that one. I will read Stephan’s Book.

      Thanks,

      Forky

      • AndyB
        August 27, 2014 at 2:09 am

        I’d recommend listening to Jan’s podcast interview with Stephen Zarlenga of the American Monetary Institute and reading Stephen’s book, “The Lost Science of Money” where he completely debunks the Austrian School of Economics, which is what Libertarians base their “free market” ideals from.

        People like Molyneux and Larken Rose are operating under the fallacy that things like physical and human infrastructure can only be paid for through taxes….they don’t! The American Monetary Institute shows how this can be done here: http://www.monetary.org/wp-content/u…e-brochure.pdf

        No initiation of force or threat of violence needs to occur. No one’s rights needs to be violated. The American Monetary Institute has already shown how the state can coexist without the non-aggression principle ever being violated, and the violation of that principle through taxation is the crux of Stefan’s whole argument.

        People like Molyneux and Larken Rose fail to have a fundamental understanding of what money is and what it’s purpose is. They still define money as gold, or view it as a commodity which couldn’t be more wrong or further from the truth. “Money exists not by nature, but by law” ~ Aristotle. If they had a true understanding of what money is and how a properly functioning monetary system is suppose to work, we could completely eliminate the need for taxes all together!

        Anther thing that I take issue with in regards to Stefan Molyneux and another major fallacy that Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalist are blatantly guilty of is this:

        Science of assumptions: An oxymoron in which the criterion for acceptability of a discipline are whether its assumptions are logically consistent, without regard to whether or not they are realistic. The result tends to be circular reasoning based on tautological definitions. See Dismal Science, Junk Science and Neoclassical Economics. Antithesis: Reality economics.

        Scientology, economic: In the sphere of academia, economic scientology is to science as astrology is to astronomy. The term refers to the love of scientific modes of exposition by non-scientists; the attempt by non-scientists to ape the superficial trappings of science by using complex mathematical formulae, but without the realistic empirical and statistical dimension that characterizes the physical sciences. As in the sphere of religious scientology promoted by the science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, the criterion for judging economic scientology is not its worldly reality but simply the degree to which its assumptions are logically consistent with one another. At the hands of neoliberals, these assumptions reflect a static and strongly right-wing, anti-labor polemical worldview. (See Nobel Prize.)

        It’s time for Stefan Molyneux to be debunked and I’d like to see Jan expose him as a fraudster and would like to know what Jan’s thoughts are on Stefan considering Jan’s in depth interviews with Stephan Zarlenga. There are way too many contradictions of ideas out there in regards to money, and as long as they exist and we don’t have an honest debate and look on these issues, then any hope for a true and effective monetary system and reform to occur will be lost and nothing will be accomplished. If we ignore this issue then we are guaranteeing our enslavement.

        • Stephen
          August 27, 2014 at 10:47 am

          I saw SM being mentioned here in these comments, and wanted to make some statements. But I I’m not sure there is a point, and haven’t had the time/ energy. But I agree it is time for people like him to stop brainwashing and beating up on people via the internet. I will say though, I listened, last summer to many, many hours of SM’s podcasts, call in shows, and other stuff. He puts out a huge amount of material. Enough to really take up a lot of time to sift through. I stopped after I got sick of his strong support of Vegetarianism.

          Lots of other stuff wrong with SM, but too much stuff to address. One thing I can think of is he is very one sided, polarized. Something is either this or this, no in between. If you “say” something on his call in show it must, is, will always be “true” and he will lambaste you, or sympathize with you. He will ignore outside influences and always blame the parent for the child’s problem, etc. He will ask people why has it taken you so long to call in, if you’ve been a listener so long?” and the caller will slink and beg forgiveness for their transgression. As if it is completely obvious that he and his show are infallible, and everyone listening to him should be sure from the get go that calling in and speaking to him about their “problems” would help them.

          I don’t know I just found the prolific output he was churning out was of little value and actually really pissed me off more than not. Reminded me of listening to Alex Jones ad nauseum, or some other supposed truth based media, on the radio in America show. Actually, the same type of frustration I’ve been getting from reading Aldous Huxley!

          • forky
            August 28, 2014 at 1:18 pm

            Thanks Andy and Stephen,

            Very interesting comments. I have found SM to be pretty entertaining and thoughtful. His shows are long but I’ve found them to be very informative. I’ve seen a few rebuttal vids challenging SM’s shows but I didn’t think they held any water.

            Anyway… Thanks for your input regarding SM. I will keep your comments in mind next time I watch one of his “truth about” presentations.

            Forky

          • steve naive
            September 14, 2014 at 12:50 pm

            it is my understanding that SM is connected to the venus project. i thought they had been thoroughly exposed as a eugenics front,

  4. Lya Kotys
    August 19, 2014 at 8:59 pm

    This post is especially for Joe and anyone else worried about the ebola virus.

    Please listen to this well-researched podcast by Dr. Daniels totally debunking the ebola epidemic threat in the US as a psyop.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/blakeradio/2014/08/19/healing-with-dr-daniels-

    Among some of the highlights of her podcast are Dr. Daniels’ examination of Koch’s postulates, which are the gold standard in identifying if a disease was cause by an infectious organism.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/koch%27s%20postulates?s=t

    And then she directs the listener to the US National Institutes of Health’s Web site, where they tell you what medical tests are recommended to perform on patients to determine whether they have Ebola which are:

    Tests used to diagnose Ebola fever include:

    CBC
    Electrolytes
    Tests of how well the blood clots (coagulation studies)
    Liver function tests
    Tests to show whether someone has been exposed to the Ebola virus (virus-specific antibodies)

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001339.htm

    In other words, they are not recommending any test that would identify that anyone would definitively have the Ebola virus!

    She also goes to the government’s own website which states “Developed countries have regulations that help protect the general public from infectious diseases. Public health measures typically involve eliminating the pathogen from its reservoir or from its route of transmission. Those measures include ensuring a safe water supply, effectively managing sewage treatment and disposal, and initiating food safety, animal control, and (vaccination programs).” Also, “developing countries suffer particularly severely from many infectious diseases because conditions of crowding and poor sanitation are ideal for the growth and spread of pathogens.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK20370/

    • Lya Kotys
      August 20, 2014 at 7:27 am

      One more comment… If you listen to Dr. Daniel’s podcast you will hear her say that the vaccine for ebola in the US is scheduled to come out in September, just when children are scheduled to start school. Is the timing a coincidence?

      Dr. Daniels also quotes the same NCBI government website mentioned in my previous post : ‘Currently new types of vaccines, the DNA vaccines, are in early stage trials. These vaccines contain genes that encode proteins from pathogens. When these genes are inserted into host cells and are expressed in the form of pathogen proteins, an immune reaction may result.’ And she further says that this means that ‘From now on they are going to genetically modify the person with the vaccine. They inject you with the DNA vaccine, the DNA from the vaccine enters your DNA and gets copied and copied and copied . . . that’s the new level of vaccine.’ This is where the REAL war lies. There is a war on our genetics!!! This ties in with transhumanism!

      The new types of vaccines target our DNA. Nano particles in all forms (including nano silver) target our DNA because nano particles are small enough to enter our cells and alter our cell’s DNA. That is why nano silver is toxic! (I am sorry I am still putting together the research on nano silver.) There is also genetically modified food, targeting our DNA!

      The threat of an ebola epidemic is a red herring and a causative agent (to encourage more vaccinations) to distract us from the real war that is being waged on us, which is the war on our genetics! Just as Jan says (I am paraphrasing) that mind control is not only one thing, they target us many ways, they are targeting our genetics in a multitude of ways.

  5. Gary Gray
    August 20, 2014 at 10:34 am

    Around 41:16, I believe that it is Bill. Supporting the notion that CO2 is a cause for manmade global warning. I am really quite surprised that no one called him on his premise. His premise is very same premise being used to justify chemtrails. It is a bogus claim!

    Piers Corbyn points out that CO2 does not drive climate/temperature. And there is no evidence of it in the real data. Temperatures of the oceans drive CO2 levels. There is no evidence of the CO2 theory. Only 3.4% of CO2 is caused by human activity which is a tiny amount. Termites produce more CO2 than humans.

    Jan should invite Piers Corbyn on his show. Another great guest would be Steve Crothers. Who completely debunks the Theory of Relativity and the notion of a Big Bang Universe.

    Public Hearing on Covert Chemtrail Operations in Shasta, CA (Full Video)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY3ZpQy3FcQ

    Piers Corbyn on the Myth of Man-Made Global Warming | Space News
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZLkN8F0Q14&index=10

    The recent Electric Universe conference in Albuquerque New Mexico featured investigators from wide ranging disciplines, who had come to a common conclusion. The key to understanding so-called climate change is the electromagnetic connection between Earth and the Sun. One of the most powerful of these voices is Piers Corbyn, who has received international acclaim for the accuracy of his long-range forecasts. Although we hear daily of a scientific consensus to the contrary, what does Piers make of mankind’s alleged role in affecting the climate on Earth?

    Piers Corbyn: The Reality of Long Range Weather and Climate Forecasting | EU2014
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R26PXRrgds

    Piers Corbyn described the failure of standard meteorology (SM) in outlook, theory, and practice. He included: signals in real meteorology data unexplained by SM; real role of jet stream, stratosphere, electro-jets, magnetosphere, solar wind, solar corona, and the Moon; the total inability of SM to explain: sudden stratospheric warmings and its consequences, tropical storm intensifications, angular momentum concentration in tornadoes; and the need for something else such as electromagnetic plasma explanations; the theoretical basis of non-standard long range weather forecasting on a real planet; a summary on his WeatherAction forecasting skill and examples; and the future of forecasting and meteorology, climate ‘science’ and science in general.

    Piers Corbyn began recording weather and climate patterns at the age of five, constructing his own observation equipment. He obtained a first-class honors degree in physics at Imperial College London. In 1969, he became the first president of the Imperial College Students’ Union to be directly elected by the student body. He later studied astrophysics in 1979 at Queen Mary College, London, and then began examining the relationship between Earth’s weather and climate and solar activity. Following many years of weather prediction as an occupation, Piers formed WeatherAction in 1995, where he sells web-accessible long-range monthly forecasts for Britain and Ireland, Europe, and the USA plus special forecasts of ‘Red Weather periods’ and related increases in thunder/tornado and earthquake risk.
    http://www.weatheraction.com

    Steve Crothers on Failures of Big Bang Cosmology
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC_KkLvG22A

    May 5, 2014

    Scientists using the BICEP2 telescope recently pronounced that they had discovered direct evidence of Einstein gravitational waves and cosmic inflation. The team describes having detected polarizations in the so-called Cosmic Microwave Background, which is described as the afterglow of the theoretical Big Bang explosion. Science media declared the discovery a victory for Big Bang cosmology. However, omitted from the science press releases are countless foundational problems for the Big Bang theory. Stephen Crothers weighs in on the topic.

    Stephen Crothers: The Parallax Effect on Short Hair | EU2014
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXF098w48fo

    Apr 19, 2014

    Stephen Crothers presented the case that Black Holes and the Big Bang have been created by theorists and never observed. Black Holes are now said to be both invisible and visible. Quasars are now black holes; so are the ‘blazars’. Individual black holes are also alleged x-ray sources. It is claimed that galaxies harbor a super-massive black hole at their centers, along with other black holes dispersed throughout them. All these black holes exist in an alleged expanding big bang universe. However, black hole universes are inconsistent with big bang universes. The audience were taken through the salient facts one step at a time in this riveting mostly non-mathematical presentation. The math of General Relativity has a notorious reputation for its complexity but most of the important facts can be understood by the layman and specialist alike without any mathematics.

    Crothers is a preeminent mathematician, counted among the most competent critics of modern cosmology (including both the General Theory of Relativity and popular theory of the Big Bang). He has also gained much attention for his systematic unraveling of standard Black Hole theory, showing that the mathematical model of a Black Hole follows neither from observation nor from any logical reasoning from Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity.

    • forky
      August 31, 2014 at 3:44 pm

      Here’s a very good, comprehensive documentary on the global warming hoax. Testimony from many climate science experts, Highly recommended.

      Forky
      _________________

      The Great Global Warming Swindle Full Movie

      youtu.be/52Mx0_8YEtg

      “Originally broadcasted March 8, 2007 on British Channel 4.

      A documentary, by British television producer Martin Durkin, which argues against the virtually unchallenged consensus that global warming is man-made. A statement from the makers of this film asserts that the scientific theory of anthropogenic global warming could very well be “the biggest scam of modern times.”

      A must see for truth-seekers everywhere…”

  6. AndyB
    August 21, 2014 at 3:57 am

    Just wanted to play devil’s advocate on this and get your thoughts? Maybe I’m missing something.
    @ the 28 minute mark of this podcast, Jan cites a video that included the inventor of the Ebola Vaccine where he goes on to say that “25% of the world’s population is suppose to go on contagion.” My take on that statement was that it sounded like it was in response to what the speaker thought was an absurd question and thus followed with an absurd answer which was meant to be taken facetiously and not literally. The speaker does after all say after making that remark that he thought it was an absurd question. The question was, “should we concern ourselves with feeding 8 billion people on the planet or should we allow natural forces of carrying capacity to affect or limit population growth, placing our emotions aside?”

    After playing that clip, Jan follows with this statement, “by saying something like that means that these are actual things they are considering doing or are actually doing.”

    My question is, isn’t it a bit of a logical leap to infer from what was meant as a joke and turn it into an accusation of someone actually planning out the eradication of a population or is actually doing it? Not to say that there haven’t been vaccination programs that have done exactly that, so obviously that’s not out of the realm of possibility, but I just want to raise the point of being careful as to not make a baseless accusation from a 10 second sound bite.

    Am I wrong?

    • August 21, 2014 at 6:14 pm

      The whole point is that one of the guys making this stuff IS making such jokes. We know from MKULTRA that they’ve done human experiments, we know they’ve created bio weapons – remember Sadam Husein bought them from us. But obviously wouldn’t couldn’t possibily joke about it without considering actually doing it. You can’t make a joke, which he was obviously ready with, unless he’d considered the idea. Else, how’d he have made the joke in the first place?

      “that means that these are actual things they are considering doing or are actually doing.”

      Sure, if you want to believe it’s just a joke and that governments and psychopaths have no history of ever, ever doing such things (small pox – Native Americans, for example) then continue believing that he would be able to joke about it without first considering it.

      Which came first: The joke or the consideration of the idea?

      What does the word consider mean?

      consider, v.

      (kənˈsɪdə(r))

      Also 4 -sidere, 4–6 -syder, -sydre, 5 -sydyr, -sydure, -ceder, -cidre, 5–6 -seder, -sidre, 6 (Sc.) -sydder.

      [a. F. considérer (14th c. in Littré), ad. L. consīderāre to look at closely, examine, contemplate, f. con- + a radical (found also in de-sīderāre to miss, desire), according to Festus, derived from sīdus, sīder- star, constellation. The vb. might thus be originally a term of astrology or augury, but such a use is not known in the Lat. writers.]

      1.1 To view or contemplate attentively, to survey, examine, inspect, scrutinize. arch.

      2.2 intr. To look attentively.

      3.3 trans. To contemplate mentally, fix the mind upon; to think over, meditate or reflect on, bestow attentive thought upon, give heed to, take note of.

      b.3.b to consider away: to drive away by consideration or reflection. rare.

      • AndyB
        August 22, 2014 at 9:18 pm

        Hi Jan, thanks for your reply and clarification, I can now understand the point you were trying to make. Also, just to reiterate from my original post, I find that it helps me to play devil’s advocate and to look at things as honestly as I can from all sides so that I can come to see things with a clearer point of view, and that was really my purpose for raising the question that I did.

        Also, I had absolutely no reference point to really objectively judge the speaker on because I have no knowledge of his particular history and of what participation he has had in anything heinous or psychopathic. I am well aware of the disturbing history that our government has had (thanks to your website) in regards to things such as human experiments in MKULTRA (Karen Wetmore’s account covers that quite well), as well as the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, etc. I was just trying to be careful to not commit the guilt by association fallacy without more information with this particular fellow.

        Following from that, I suppose when I originally heard the clip, my view was that the speaker was more or less making a reference to a movie rather than presenting an idea that he had at some point given “consideration” to. Remember his quote was in reference to the movie “Contagion” for which the premise of that movie came from someone else and not him. The quote was, “25% of the world’s population is suppose to go on CONTAGION.”

        In any case, I don’t mean to harp on the same point because it doesn’t change the deep history our government has in the gross violation of human rights and murder. Not to mention the simple fact that most of the higher ups that are involved with these organization tend to be dirty in the first place. But again my purpose was to play devil’s advocate for my benefit and to hopeful help strengthen your research and the overall conversation. Thanks.

        Cheers.

        • forky
          August 23, 2014 at 8:13 am

          Hi Andy,

          I appreciate your line of questioning. I didn’t perceive that guy’s joke as lighthearted recklessness. I think he was relating a general attitude among academia concerning the so-called “population problem”. After all, it’s their job to “think” about these things and affect a “decision”…

          A very good friend of mine considers himself an “academic”. I hear in him these same kinds of attitudes, that the average man (“the masses”) is a threat to the Earth and something must be done on his unconscious behalf. The audience in the vid responded positively to the joke because they fancy themselves as the few who “get it”. They have been conditioned to believe what the “evil higher-ups” would like them to believe. They identify their own selves with the “intellectual elite”. That spontaneous humorous gesture was just another one of those little encouragements that “we’re all on the same page”.

          I appreciate you going out on a limb like that but this is how I perceived the situation.

          Regards, keep questioning…

          Forky

        • forky
          August 23, 2014 at 8:13 am

          Hi Andy,

          I appreciate your line of questioning. I didn’t perceive that guy’s joke as lighthearted recklessness. I think he was relating a general attitude among academia concerning the so-called “population problem”. After all, it’s their job to “think” about these things and affect a “decision”…

          A very good friend of mine considers himself an “academic”. I hear in him these same kinds of attitudes, that the average man (“the masses”) is a threat to the Earth and something must be done on his unconscious behalf. The audience in the vid responded positively to the joke because they fancy themselves as the few who “get it”. They have been conditioned to believe what the “evil higher-ups” would like them to believe. They identify their own selves with the “intellectual elite”. That spontaneous humorous gesture was just another one of those little encouragements that “we’re all on the same page”.

          I appreciate you going out on a limb like that but this is how I perceived the situation.

          Regards, keep questioning…

          Forky

  7. Ralph Davis
    August 25, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    I’d like to preface my comment acknowledging what I think is a wholly benign intent of the discussion’s participants as well as their respective dedication to informed opinion within reasonable context. Like its two precedents, it’s ambitious beyond its allotted time. Something that no doubt frustrates those like myself that must allocate time spent attending them at the expense of a seemingly endless parade of the more mundane and practical life demands. Nevertheless, I’m glad to know they’ll continue and hope that they net the presumable objective of clear motive in context by these characters of squandered human intelligence.

    As a relative newcomer to this site I’m somewhat daunted by the sheer amount of information presented and appreciate what it represents as evidence to Jan’s particular scholarly talent as applied to this maze of nefarious governmental tradition. It’s especially potent since it details so much of the background influence to events and social conditions that span the entirety of my existence in this sphere in documenting the subversive lineage, insidious machinations and dubious attempts at cultural management.

    There seems the pervasive belief that ‘they’ve’ succeeded in novel subversion of the human spirit, and destroyed our capacities of resistance in some technically advanced way. I’m not at all certain that’s the case despite the mass of mindless compliance with abject authority today. I apparently watch a whole lot less TV than some panelists. So aside from short historical periods of political revolution, and even then, it’s clear that the ‘masses’ have always been subject to essentially similar levels of control by ruling elites. The entirety of civil human history appears as orchestrated as repetitive acts of a play about power consolidation in a theater of relative audience unconsciousness. You’ve driven that point about as deeply as possible, Jan.

    So at about at 1:48 in this discussion it gets down to the pertinent from our contemporary need to know; who exactly are the puppet masters of the Wasson ilk? In a previous comment I asked about possibly including discussion of the work of Dr. John Coleman and The Committee of 300 and it seemed a fit @1:48.
    Since I’m but one of the willing idiots I had hope that it might make the discussion. I’m not a professional researcher, but I can’t dispute Dr. Coleman’s position in identifying this now Anglo-American cabal of presumable, ancient lineage puppeteers that populate executive suites throughout the west. His research appears sound enough for purposes of pursuit and conforms closely with much else found here including Brain.

    Here’s what purports to be its current roster: http://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/04/club-of-rome-and-committee-of-300-video.html

    Maybe mentionable in the next installment.

    Still a bit confused, Jan, about your personal perspective on LSD. Clearly enough it’s been weaponized by the usurper mindset of intellectual thuggery, what isn’t? But as I wade into your continually fascinating book I keep bumping against your other seeming verbal dismissal of its authentic value as, for want of a better term, spiritual tool. There’s no question that it’s been abused along with its chemical cousins, but isn’t that just convenient for sociopathic forces of power and malevolence to distort and defame such ancient methodology that predates them by many tens of millennia?

    I’ve been serially through that intensely re-contextual experience and can attest to its efficacy, especially Orange Sunshine, as can many others. It isn’t by any stretch a panacea to the ills of humanity, but neither can it be summarily judged as mere tool of suggestive control and manipulative intent. Not by any stretch there either. Please correct me if I’m mischaracterizing what you’ve said or implied. In any case, I truly admire the ambition for what you’ve taken on here. Just trying to keep up, not to piss you or anyone off.

  8. Ralph Davis
    August 25, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    I’d like to preface my comment acknowledging what I think is a wholly benign intent of the discussion’s participants as well as their respective dedication to informed opinion within reasonable context. Like its two precedents, it’s ambitious beyond its allotted time. Something that no doubt frustrates those like myself that must allocate time spent attending them at the expense of a seemingly endless parade of the more mundane and practical life demands. Nevertheless, I’m glad to know they’ll continue and hope that they net the presumable objective of clear motive in context by these characters of squandered human intelligence.

    As a relative newcomer to this site I’m somewhat daunted by the sheer amount of information presented and appreciate what it represents as evidence to Jan’s particular scholarly talent as applied to this maze of nefarious governmental tradition. It’s especially potent since it details so much of the background influence to events and social conditions that span the entirety of my existence in this sphere in documenting the subversive lineage, insidious machinations and dubious attempts at cultural management.

    There seems the pervasive belief that ‘they’ve’ succeeded in novel subversion of the human spirit, and destroyed our capacities of resistance in some technically advanced way. I’m not at all certain that’s the case despite the mass of mindless compliance with abject authority today. I apparently watch a whole lot less TV than some panelists. So aside from short historical periods of political revolution, and even then, it’s clear that the ‘masses’ have always been subject to essentially similar levels of control by ruling elites. The entirety of civil human history appears as orchestrated as repetitive acts of a play about power consolidation in a theater of relative audience unconsciousness. You’ve driven that point about as deeply as possible, Jan.

    So at about at 1:48 in this discussion it gets down to the pertinent from our contemporary need to know; who exactly are the puppet masters of the Wasson ilk? In a previous comment I asked about possibly including discussion of the work of Dr. John Coleman and The Committee of 300 and it seemed a fit @1:48.
    Since I’m but one of the willing idiots I had hope that it might make the discussion. I’m not a professional researcher, but I can’t dispute Dr. Coleman’s position in identifying this now Anglo-American cabal of presumable, ancient lineage puppeteers that populate executive suites throughout the west. His research appears sound enough for purposes of pursuit and conforms closely with much else found here including Brain.

    Here’s what purports to be its current roster: http://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/04/club-of-rome-and-committee-of-300-video.html

    Maybe mentionable in the next installment.

    Still a bit confused, Jan, about your personal perspective on LSD. Clearly enough it’s been weaponized by the usurper mindset of intellectual thuggery, what isn’t? But as I wade into your continually fascinating book I keep bumping against your other seeming verbal dismissal of its authentic value as, for want of a better term, spiritual tool. There’s no question that it’s been abused along with its chemical cousins, but isn’t that just convenient for sociopathic forces of power and malevolence to distort and defame such ancient methodology that predates them by many tens of millennia?

    I’ve been serially through that intensely re-contextual experience and can attest to its efficacy, especially Orange Sunshine, as can many others. It isn’t by any stretch a panacea to the ills of humanity, but neither can it be summarily judged as mere tool of suggestive control and manipulative intent. Not by any stretch there either. Please correct me if I’m mischaracterizing what you’ve said or implied. In any case, I truly admire the ambition for what you’ve taken on here. Just trying to keep up, not to piss you or anyone off.

  9. Ralph Davis
    August 25, 2014 at 1:08 pm

    I’d like to preface my comment acknowledging what I think is a wholly benign intent of the discussion’s participants as well as their respective dedication to informed opinion within reasonable context. Like its two precedents, it’s ambitious beyond its allotted time. Something that no doubt frustrates those like myself that must allocate time spent attending them at the expense of a seemingly endless parade of the more mundane and practical life demands. Nevertheless, I’m glad to know they’ll continue and hope that they net the presumable objective of clear motive in context by these characters of squandered human intelligence.

    As a relative newcomer to this site I’m somewhat daunted by the sheer amount of information presented and appreciate what it represents as evidence to Jan’s particular scholarly talent as applied to this maze of nefarious governmental tradition. It’s especially potent since it details so much of the background influence to events and social conditions that span the entirety of my existence in this sphere in documenting the subversive lineage, insidious machinations and dubious attempts at cultural management.

    There seems the pervasive belief that ‘they’ve’ succeeded in novel subversion of the human spirit, and destroyed our capacities of resistance in some technically advanced way. I’m not at all certain that’s the case despite the mass of mindless compliance with abject authority today. I apparently watch a whole lot less TV than some panelists. So aside from short historical periods of political revolution, and even then, it’s clear that the ‘masses’ have always been subject to essentially similar levels of control by ruling elites. The entirety of civil human history appears as orchestrated as repetitive acts of a play about power consolidation in a theater of relative audience unconsciousness. You’ve driven that point about as deeply as possible, Jan.

    So at about at 1:48 in this discussion it gets down to the pertinent from our contemporary need to know; who exactly are the puppet masters of the Wasson ilk? In a previous comment I asked about possibly including discussion of the work of Dr. John Coleman and The Committee of 300 and it seemed a fit @1:48.
    Since I’m but one of the willing idiots I had hope that it might make the discussion. I’m not a professional researcher, but I can’t dispute Dr. Coleman’s position in identifying this now Anglo-American cabal of presumable, ancient lineage puppeteers that populate executive suites throughout the west. His research appears sound enough for purposes of pursuit and conforms closely with much else found here including Brain.

    Here’s what purports to be its current roster: http://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/04/club-of-rome-and-committee-of-300-video.html

    Maybe mentionable in the next installment.

    Still a bit confused, Jan, about your personal perspective on LSD. Clearly enough it’s been weaponized by the usurper mindset of intellectual thuggery, what isn’t? But as I wade into your continually fascinating book I keep bumping against your other seeming verbal dismissal of its authentic value as, for want of a better term, spiritual tool. There’s no question that it’s been abused along with its chemical cousins, but isn’t that just convenient for sociopathic forces of power and malevolence to distort and defame such ancient methodology that predates them by many tens of millennia?

    I’ve been serially through that intensely re-contextual experience and can attest to its efficacy, especially Orange Sunshine, as can many others. It isn’t by any stretch a panacea to the ills of humanity, but neither can it be summarily judged as mere tool of suggestive control and manipulative intent. Not by any stretch there either. Please correct me if I’m mischaracterizing what you’ve said or implied. In any case, I truly admire the ambition for what you’ve taken on here. Just trying to keep up, not to piss you or anyone off.

    • August 25, 2014 at 3:14 pm

      It was marketed as spiritual. There’s no evidence of their spirituality, other than through inculcation. Obviously LSD was invented in a laboratory.

      But Maybe these quotes will help you. I cover all of this in a new article I’ve not yet released.

      the CIA’s MKULTRA psychiatrist, Dr. Sydney Cohen, stated before Congress in 1966:
      May I add something to what you have just said, Senator? I think another thing that has to be pointed out to these young people is that the LSD state is a completely uncritical one, a hypersuggestible one, and that what happens there can overwhelm some people and yet be quite illusory. There are insights here to be found and examined, but also the great possibility that the insights are not valid at all and overwhelm certain credulous personalities.
      ~ Sydney Cohen

      Here we also see Prof. Marlene Dobkin de Rios discussing the hyper-suggestibility factor:

      Psychedelic substances like ayahuasca create a state of hypersuggestibility in which persons are very open to being influenced by others. Many traditional cultures have utilized this condition to inculcate cultural values and behaviors in young people as they receive initiation into adulthood. In the West, countercultural values can be inculcated in young people when using these psychedelics, especially when using them in an antinomian context.
      ~ Marlene Dobkin de Rios

      It is probably no accident that the society which most consistently encouraged the use of these substances, India, produced one of the sickest social orders ever created by mankind in which thinking men spent their time lost in the Buddha position under the influence of drugs exploring consciousness, while poverty, disease, social discrimination, and superstition reached their highest and most organised form in all history.
      ~ David McClelland

      As propagandist and media expert Marshal McLuhan stated over lunch with Tim Leary:
      The lunch with Marshall McLuhan at the Plaza was informative. “Dreary Senate hearings and courtrooms are not the platforms for your message, Tim. You call yourself a philosopher, a reformer. Fine. But the key to your work is advertising. You’re promoting a product. The new and improved accelerated brain. You must use the most current tactics for arousing consumer interest. Associate LSD with all the good things that the brain can produce—beauty, fun, philosophic wonder, religious revelation, increased intelligence, mystical romance. Word of mouth from satisfied consumers will help, but get your rock and roll friends to write jingles about the brain.” He sang:
      Lysergic acid hits the spot.
      Forty billion neurons, that’s a lot.
      “The problem is tricky,” I said. “The opposition beat us to the punch. The psychiatrists and police propagandists have already stressed the negative, which can be dangerous when the mind is re-imprinting under.
      They may be deliberately provoking bad trips. They never mention the 999 good experiences. They keep repeating ‘LSD: jump out a window.’ When some ill-prepared person goes spinning into new realms, he or she wonders what happens now? Oh yeah. Jump out a window. It’s like the over-solicitous mother who warned her kids not to push peanuts up their noses.”

      “Exactly,” agreed McLuhan. “That’s why your advertising must stress the religious. Find the god within. This is all frightfully interesting. Your competitors are naturally denouncing the brain as an instrument of the devil. Priceless!
      “To dispel fear you must use your public image. You are the basic product endorser. Whenever you are photographed, smile. Wave reassuringly. Radiate courage. Never complain or appear angry. It’s okay if you come off as flamboyant and eccentric. You’re a professor, after all. But a confident attitude is the best advertisement. You must be known for your smile.”
      […]
      “You’re going to win the war, Timothy. Eventually. But you’re going to lose some major battles on the way. You’re not going to overthrow the Protestant Ethic in a couple years.[…] [emphasis added]
      ~Timothy Leary

      in Maria Sabina, Her Life and Chants, she unequivocally states:

      After those first visits of Wasson, many foreign people came to ask me to do vigils for them. I asked them if they were sick, but they said no…that they had only come “to know God.” They brought innumerable objects with which they took what they called photographs and recorded my voice. Later they brought papers [newspapers and magazines] in which I appeared. I’ve kept some papers I’m in. I keep them even though I don’t know what they say about me.
      It’s true that Wasson and his friends were the first foreigners who came to our town in search of the saint children and that they didn’t take them because they suffered from any illness. Their reason was that they came to find God.
      Before Wasson nobody took the mushrooms only to find God. They were always taken for the sick to get well.
      ~ Maria Sabina

      She further states:

      For a time there came young people of one and the other sex, long-haired, with strange clothes. They wore shirts of many colors and used necklaces. A lot came. Some of these young people sought me out for me to stay up with the Little-One-Who-Springs-Forth. “We come in search of God,” they said. It was difficult for me to explain to them that the vigils weren’t done from the simple desire to find God, but were done with the sole purpose of curing the sickness that our people suffer from.
      ~ Maria Sabina

      In citing 16th century Franciscan friar Motolinia, Benitez reveals:

      They had another way of getting drunk that made them crueler: it was with certain fungi or small mushrooms (unos hongos o setas pequeñas), of which there are such in this land as in Castile; but those of this land are of such quality that eaten raw and being bitter, they drink after taking them and eat them with a little bee honey; and in a little while they see a thousand visions and especially snakes; and as they go out of their senses, their legs and body appear full of worms eating them alive and thus half raving they leave the house wanting someone to kill them; and with this bestial drunkenness and thing they felt (trabajor que sentian), it sometimes happened they would hang themselves and they were also crueler toward others. With these mushrooms, called teunanacatlh in their language, which means flesh of the god or the devil which they worship, and in this way with this bitter delicacy they communed with their cruel god.
      ~ Motolinia

      Wasson’s book The Wondrous Mushroom (notice that word “wondrous”? He loves loaded terms like: “magic,” “wondrous,” “sacred,” “divine”). In this text Wasson is discussing the early 16th century reports of Diego Durán:

      We come now to the coronation of Montezuma II in 1502 when no one in Aztec country had yet heard of the Spaniards. For four days there was feasting and celebration and that on the fourth day came the coronation followed by human sacrifices in numbers. Then follows this paragraph where the sacred mushrooms enter.

      The sacrifice finished and the steps of the temple and patio bathed in human blood, they all went to eat raw mushrooms; on which food they all went out of their minds, worse than if they had drunk much wine, ie fermented drinks, so drunk and senseless were they that many killed themselves by their own hand, and, with the force of those mushrooms, they could see visions and have revelations of the fugue, the Devil speaking to them in that drunken state.
      ~ Gordon Wasson citing Diego Durán

      Dismissing Durán’s quote out of hand, Wasson states:

      Durán’s tone here is so out of harmony with what he had previously said that, were we not dealing with the holographic manuscript in his own hand, I would ask whether we had to do with an interpolation of a priestly redactor. Such a violent statement – many men drunk and senseless killing themselves is repeated by white men unacquainted with the hallucinogenic mushrooms, or who have possibly been ill-prepared for the experience and been drunk from alcohol when they took them.

      Since the passage is known to be of Duran’s own hand, Wasson can’t claim it’s a forgery. So when he claims that “many men drunk and senseless killing themselves is repeated by white men unacquainted with the hallucinogenic mushrooms,” this is actually what is known as a circumstantial ad hominem attack. Wasson’s tactic is arguing that because these men were white (Wasson was also white), their whiteness prevented them from properly seeing the natives eating mushrooms and, using suggestibility, influencing victims to commit sacrifice and suicide. None of this fits into the “spiritual” imagery Wasson is trying to force on his readers. It’s an absurd argument, and then he speculates about their use of alcohol to further his unfounded attack.

      It was all just marketing and PR… the substances cause “hyper suggestion”.

      So suggestogen(s) or suggerogen(s) would be roughly defined as:
      n. A substance or substances formerly known as hallucinogens, psychedelics, entheogens, schizophrenigens, psychotomimetics, psychotropics, psychoactives, adaptogens, empathogens, fantasticants, enactogens, psycholytics, and many other various names, that have been used historically to suggest a person do someone else’s will, often to do evil, while under the influence of such substances, which generate hyper-suggestibility in the taker. Hyper-suggestibility is so increased by such substances that their mere name can affect the outcome of the experience of their use – hence (pl.) suggestogens. Historically, in the 1950s and 1960s, such substances were used in an attempt by men such as Aldous Huxley and Gordon Wasson, along with the CIA’s MKULTRA program, to re-create the biblical Fall.
      Adj. suggestogenic/suggerogenic: capable of being used for such purposes.

      • Gaia Mars-hall
        August 31, 2014 at 2:44 pm

        Well if “They ” say that LSD and other related chemicals create a state of “hyper suggestion”, and as presented to Congress no less, and that you suggest that the various names so adopted at various points in these substances dissemination, all fall under a particular term that you have coined a “Suggestogen” well that is quite interesting to think about such a nominative.

        The map becomes the territory once ingested, but the nature of the term “Suggestogen” implies with it a certain choice point, illustrative of the very notion of human freedom, that one might open a certain way to approach the phenomenological presentation of of enhanced cellular communication via an encounter with such analogues to ones bio-luminescent hologram.

        Yes the Garden and Fall seems to have been an engineered construct, but I think “They” decided these ‘Luminents’ were
        too dangerous because of their very nature, where the very protean nature of such quicksilver might well develop actual glimpses of magisterial self development, where the “Suggestogenic” freedom was intuited between visions of heaven or hell ultimately realized that one must not fall prey even for the desire for more, but rather moderation, under will. That and
        that the luminents were not likely to be good for business as the more noxious herdifying Dopes such as marijuana, cocaine, heroin, speed, qualudes, booze, tabacco,etc…

  10. Ralph Davis
    August 26, 2014 at 6:07 am

    Thanks for the considered reply, Jan. I take your point and agree that the entire body of psychotropics have been ritually used throughout history to effect initiations in the various cultures employing them.
    The ‘suggestibility’ component of the experience for any individual certainly stands as prospective, but I think its mistaken to extrapolate rational helplessness in all instances.

    The degree of vulnerability, no doubt, may be amplified considerably and vary substantially within a host of personality and environmental factors. But I can tell you from serial experience that one central governing feature of the LSD modified consciousness state, especially prominent during what held the potential of being extremely disorienting, transitional phases of shifting perception, was an omnipresent, rationally reflective capacity of functional intuition.

    I can certainly see how a knowledgable shaman or psychiatrist could impose perspective over a subject’s interpretation and surely contextualize perception within relationship to specific cultural ends. But again, based in what was rationally assessable while experiencing extremes of perceptional transitions, the mind proved quite capable of independently interpreting and contextualizing what was potentially shattering to the psyche. The proverbial inner voice of conscience and consciousness prevails if enabled and honored.

    To use Cohen here as an example of subtile misinformation. His premise is qualified bullshit:

    “I think another thing that has to be pointed out to these young people is that the LSD state is a completely uncritical one, a hypersuggestible one, and that what happens there can overwhelm some people and yet be quite illusory. There are insights here to be found and examined, but also the great possibility that the insights are not valid at all and overwhelm certain credulous personalities.”
    ~ Sydney Cohen

    The LSD mind state is by far NOT, in the least, uncritical. In fact it was solidly one of the most remarkable aspects within profoundly novel periods of perception. The experience of a quickened intuition assuming its place as functional guide throughout events was essential, automatic and ultimately reliable. So Cohen either doesn’t have a clue or is intentionally misguiding in the way he’s framing his statement. I think it’s clearly the latter. The rest of what he’s saying is applicable to all human perception irrespective of pharmacological inducements.

    A lot hinges on intent in relationship to individual character and basic intellectual integrity as you well know, Jan. The manipulators prey on weakness of both. The value of your work, in my view, is in its disciplined deciphering of intent by exposing the evidence of systemic deceit in historical context. Once exposed and understood it empowers individual resistance to victimization by it. Important work. But, as evidenced, being too quick to generalize is a pitfall as well, and I urge you caution against that.

    Looking forward to what’s yet here to come. And don’t let the bastards get you down as they ramp up.

    • August 26, 2014 at 8:33 am

      ” I think its mistaken to extrapolate rational helplessness in all instances. ” – feel free to supply your evidence as I have done… As we can see, it was done to whole cultures. Initiation into what, exactly?

      “to a degree, no doubt” – I would say to a HUGE degree. If someone even suggests the wrong words while someone is high, it can send them into a wild bad trip.

      In fact, most who buy into it are in an uncritical, hyper suggestible state, which effect CERTAIN credulous personalities. So you’re saying that you can prove that the insights are valid? Quickened intuition? What does that mean, exactly? Most hippies and LSD takers have ZERO critical thinking. See the trivium study section. Understand the onus of proof. “So Cohen doesn’t have a clue” – based on your unsupported position. If you’re trying to force the idea of spirituality, again, no one had considered this throughout the 1950s.

      If you can find any instance where mysticism is real, then we can progress forward with such theries. But until then the onus of proof is on you.

      Apparently the powers that be have always used them for the same purpose. Where, in 20 years research, have I been “too quick to generalize”? Again, you provide no evidence, citations, quotes, nothing to support your position. Without evidence it’s known as “arguing the arbitrary” and tossed by default. The onus of proof for your position is on you, no one else.

    • Gaia Mars-hall
      August 31, 2014 at 2:58 pm

      Ralph,

      I appreciate you posts and glad that you have responded to Jan’s offering of Sydney Cohen’s Congressional testimony in the way you do, including as you Cohen’s own trip report.

      Now one thing you bring up is the conception, based upon experience, that such substances, LSD, are not uncritical, which I think is true.

      I think the hell that has been communicated by a few friends is that their first experience with LSD took them into a “hyper-critical” state
      where they became very critical in looking at themselves. It was literally as though they had died and were reviewing their lives and being plunged into the reality of how self centered, mean, unaware, fake, afraid, etc that they were. Fortunately in these instances
      the prolonged experience also helped to strip such constructs to an essence that brought them to a place of self acceptance and fulfillment in showing that there was a way of being beyond their ego constructs which was part of the whole physiologically supportive experience. LSD was a blessing that did not need repeating for the lesson learned.

      So might we have another term or definition to suggest~ ha how about – ‘Criticalogens’

      And now some words from the critics…..

      • Ralph Davis
        September 1, 2014 at 6:08 pm

        Hey, thanks for the kind reply, Gaia. The idea of ‘hyper-critical’ awareness is notable as you describe it in my experience, too. It seems to occur mostly in very preliminary stage of transitional consciousness where ego-centric dependance is challenged by the intuitive understanding of experiencing facsimile of death. It relates to what I referred to as the impetus to a ‘quickening’ of intuition born in necessity of reorientation to preclude any unnecessary or inhibiting tending towards anxiety, fear or panic in a rapidly evolving process of transformational consciousness.

        It’s that same intuitive influence that quickly enables calm understanding through recurrent re-contextualization of consciousness independent of normal perceptual constraint filters within our physical brain, and understood as the normally imposing governance of perceived time. That understanding further facilitates distinction between realms of the normal ego-dominant self and related but independent greater-soul-self which, in turn, enables the freedom to explore progressive levels of cosmic consciousness as it generates flow.

        A place where one could still quite rationally reflect on a quote from Proust that ‘the true voyage of discovery isn’t in seeking new lands, but in seeing with new eyes’. Inherent to our being is high intuition but we’re disinclined culturally to engage it by overriding impositions of rational and emotional demands of material environment. There are a few visionaries, like Walter Russell, who possess the facility involuntarily and independent of applied chemistry. He contends universality of human ability to access and utilize this intuitive state of cosmic consciousness and published legacy study material in course form.

        Here’s an intro site to his work: http://walter-russell.com

  11. Ralph Davis
    August 26, 2014 at 11:45 am

    * Somehow the above self-posted while typing. This is the complete reply.

    ” I think its mistaken to extrapolate rational helplessness in all instances. ” – feel free to supply your evidence as I have done… As we can see, it was done to whole cultures. Initiation into what, exactly?

    I think, Jan, the very fact that many people, like myself, can personally attest first hand to that experience is, however anecdotal, evidence that can only be provided by first hand account. Second party observation and assessment or third party interpretation reporting is no less subjective. The latter, taken from historical accounts, is what you imply as the more relevant as evidence in this instance.

    So, you cite and support Sydney Cohen’s position? Who again was Syd and what was his eventual role in the mix of covert experimentation within the CIA agenda? Maybe we should rely on Joseph Mengele to describe what it’s like having a sibling twin. Admittedly an extreme analogy, but the point holds.

    Sydney’s opinion evolved within his MK ULTRA association of experimentation on both willing and helpless subjects. At least he had the initial courage to dose himself whereupon he described his own experience thusly: “I was taken by surprise. This was no confused disoriented delirium, but something quite different… the problems and strivings, the worries and frustrations of everyday life vanished. In their place was a majestic, sunlit, inner quietude. I seemed to have finally arrived at the contemplation of eternal truth.” – p.356 paragraph entitled: LSD as a Psychedelic Experience, from Google Books sample:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yEcXJFrZNpgC&pg=PA353&lpg=PA353&dq=Sidney+Cohen+testimony+in+congress&source=bl&ots=rVdLdFUQqJ&sig=oJhg_LFWea8PH8CR4fes6Tb_lCw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wrn8U9GFF9CBygSltYHQCw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Sidney%20Cohen%20testimony%20in%20congress&f=false

    So, Jan, where lies the truth? Is it in Syd’s later description of ‘completely uncritical’ as delivered to congress in the same context as Leary, or in his preceding descriptive that seems personally analytic and critically reflective enough.

    So, I say tomato, ..and you say tornado. Why such an exclusively hyper-negative focus? I say ‘to a degree’, and you say ‘to a HUGE degree. Who do you cite to back up the contention of effortless incitement of the proverbial ‘bad trip’? Sure, if I get you high, threaten and then drop you from a building like the occasional remorseful CIA player, that, I’d say, represents HUGE degree of undue influence. Kinda’ Aztec methodology to get the heads rolling, eh? I mean, if you want to breed horror pull out the stops. Like today’s CIA ISIS. But say ‘boo!’ when I’m tripping and I’m gonna laugh hysterically. So much, in my view, for the alleged ‘hyper-suggestibility. It’s a concept, not an incontrovertible fact.

    You cite this out of context; “So Cohen doesn’t have a clue” – based on your unsupported position.’
    I clearly stated that I chose door#2, in that regard. What I said was; ‘So Cohen either doesn’t have a clue or is intentionally misguiding in the way he’s framing his statement. I think it’s clearly the latter.’

    The reason that I think that’s the case, Jan, is precisely why you cite and think Leary’s congressional testimony was so obligatory to the CIA’s agenda. Cohen as completely contradicts himself as shown in his own words above.

    ‘If you’re trying to force the idea of spirituality, again, no one had considered this throughout the 1950s.’

    I don’t see my statements as forcing anything. I even prefaced my wording; ‘for want of a better term’. As a reader I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, Jan. But in discussion forum I’m obligated to ask why you’re engaging sophism in defense of something merely questioned, however central to your argument. If there’s anything hyper here, it’s sensitivity, not suggestibility.

    Mysticism, whatever that is or how it may ordinarily be defined seems a perfectly valid consideration given the nature of consciousness as experienced under the influence of LSD and other like chemistry.
    Even Sydney Cohen was so moved to consider in kind. I make no claims, I hold no beliefs beyond my life’s experience. I do ask questions where I will. So, how does one proof unseen dimensions? Why are we as a species so occupied with beliefs?

    You conclude; ‘Where, in 20 years research, have I been “too quick to generalize”? Again, you provide no evidence, citations, quotes, nothing to support your position. Without evidence it’s known as “arguing the arbitrary” and tossed by default. The onus of proof for your position is on you, no one else.’

    ‘Most hippies and LSD takers have ZERO critical thinking.’ So, Jan, there’s a citation meeting your rigid criteria, in all its self-contradicting irony. The onus is on all of us. Let’s hope we get it right, eh?

    http://extraordinaryintelligence.com/shocking-videos-of-lsd-and-mkultra-experiments-on-citizens/

    • August 26, 2014 at 12:19 pm

      “I think, Jan, the very fact that many people, like myself, can personally attest first hand to that experience is, however anecdotal, evidence that can only be provided by first hand account. Second party observation and assessment or third party interpretation reporting is no less subjective. The latter, taken from historical accounts, is what you imply as the more relevant as evidence in this instance”

      yes, I’ve covered this extensively, as did the quotes… They cause HYPER SUGGESTIBILITY… if you weren’t told they were religious, you wouldn’t have had a religious experience. I keep saying that. Here’s another for you.

      A Conversation on LSD, 1979
      “Leary: All right. [Room laughs] Our undercover agents in Los Angeles were very cool about, uh, and yet they did more in a very laid-back way, uh, and it’s every bit as public as some of the other, you know, the buses running around the country [Ken Kesey and the Merry pranksters – here identified as undercover agents]….
      Janiger: Yeah, and then Zinnberg says that the visionary experience, and all of the things he was doing at Harvard, and the others, his residence, and the rest he was giving LSD to, they never had a visionary, or ecstatic, or mystic experience. That the whole thing was a California invention, he said.
      Leary: Wonderful! They’re right!
      Janiger: The only time it happened, was when you cross the Colorado River.

      yes, I get that it’s your religion, it was mine too. But when you get it, a biological experience was sold as religious.

      I think Cohen’s statement is very clear, and he was one of the CIA’s doctors who DESIGNED the whole thing. It’s caveated, but hardly contradicts himself.

      Mysticism is the tool of tyrants. Try to prove one thing that’s mystical. Understand that the onus of proof falls on you to support your claims.

      You’ve yet to show how your citations discount that they were marketed and used for INCULCATION. I’ve explained this many times. Do you think I haven’t had many such experiences?

      Yeah, they’re all CIA / MKULTRA .. ALL of them.. .that’s my point.. and the guys who told you they were spiritual, ALL of them were CIA.

      Obviously Cohen was CIA, so was Leary, McKenna, Kesey and the rest. I’ve exposed Cohen a dozen times. Have you seen my recent work on this?

      You’re going to believe a bunch of CIA agents who marketed the idea of spirituality that it’s true? Maria Sabina says that they NEVER USED THEM FOR SPIRITUALITY!!! Wasson, a CIA agent, SOLD THAT IDEA. Go through and read the work. I get that it’s your religion, it was mine too, but all they did was SUGGEST to you that it’s a religious experience and that’s what you had.

      The evidence is there throughout their work. I have 60 pages already written exposing this scam. I get it. really.

      And why the heck are you ignoring all the other citations and focusing on the OBVIOUS fact that ALL of these guys who sold them as spiritual were agents? Why are you focused on Cohen? They’re all dirty. It’s how THEY used them and how THEY sold them. Again, that’s the point. Did you even get past the first quote? I gave you about ten. All you have is “my experience dude – I felt it dude”. I’m saying that if you didn’t hear it from one of them, you’d have never had a religious type experience.

      Just because YOU believe it’s “Spiritual” or “mystical” doesn’t mean that it is, nor does it mean that your predator cares… The predator wants you to believe it’s spiritual – so he can take advantage of you. It’s really that simple.

      And please stop double posting all your replies.

      • forky
        August 26, 2014 at 1:04 pm

        Jan says – “And please stop double posting all your replies.”

        Hey Jan, I’m not sure if this is what you meant but duplicate postings seem to be occurring on their own. I’ve been posting only once but I see (sometimes days later) double and triple postings from different people, including myself, on my Firefox browser. I think there might be a glitch in your site.

        Best,
        Forky

      • Gaia Mars-hall
        August 31, 2014 at 3:38 pm

        Jan said in part of his reply to Ralph Davis-

        “yes, I get that it’s your religion, it was mine too. But when you get it, a biological experience was sold as religious.”

        It all depends upon how we consider the nature of what we term “Biological”. One danger is a to fall for a reductionist determinism
        which puts one exactly in the camp of the British Dope Pirates who are behind Darwinism and their various agents, Huxley, Rhodes, etc….

        Of course there is the story of Francis Crick, LSD and the double helix to which it is the unlocking of such coding, combined with
        a Darwinian biological determinism that feeds the very enslavement not only suggested, but objectively demonstrated in this cowardly new world that ever seeks to enslave mankind.

        It is the nature of the geometries of the double-helix itself which point to a larger beholding not considered by the gene manipulators, which speaks to a biology that expresses spiritual luminous dimensions as the basis of the biological physics of life, where light has a significant role in such a larger spectrum as evidenced by the work of Alexander Gurswitsch.

        To me the discovery of cellular communication through light as was Gurswitsch’s discovery, not exactly heralded in the west,
        speaks to something afforded by such biological experiences which religious and spiritual extrapolations spring forth as mappings from an adulterated sugar cube say.

  12. Ralph Davis
    August 27, 2014 at 6:40 am

    *forky’s right about a glitch, btw)

    “yes, I get that it’s your religion, it was mine too. But when you get it, a biological experience was sold as religious.”

    For one so focused on meaning and strict definition, Jan I can’t see any justified use of the word ‘religious’ in the context of this discussion to describe LSD effects.

    To, hopefully, clarify; the nature of LSD experience, as I’ve lived them, may be akin to what’s generally regarded as mystical, again, for want of a better word, in that it involves a massive transitional shift in conscious perception that defies and ultimately exceeds our normal perceptual body of descriptive language. It’s beyond words, in other words, so maybe it’s just natural to trip over them. (Hey, I made a pun!) But, foolish as it may be, I’ll make an attempt.

    First, it’s meaningless, Jan, to insist defining something which attempts to describe a repeatable, complex progression of perceptual consciousness that incorporates an enhanced, amplified or distorted sensory, intellectual and emotional experience as religious when nothing of a conventional religious sort is involved. No gods, angels, demons, no symbology, icons, dogma etc.

    In its preliminary phase it’s more akin to walking into a cloud forest or diving a coral reef for the first time with no prior reference or language adequate to describing the experience. It’s an intuitively self-defining perceptual state of progressive dissolution of time witnessing once familiar environments transit to light infused geometric matrices of fractal quality within common streams of energy, much more consistent with quantum physics than religion. There’s the overriding sense of visitor pass preview, if you will, of the death experience in its seamless relationship to what we normally think of as life. No aspect of our perceptual reality is seen or understood as outside, foreign or independent of a fundamentally integral relationship to the whole, vibrant, living universe. Far out, eh?

    But, then there’s the truly transcendent aspect experienced in timeless suspension of all familiarity best akin to the aboriginal descriptions of ‘dreamtime’ states. Where endless successions of discrete ‘lifetimes’ are intuitively selected within a sublime environment of infinite dimensional complexity, overwhelming beauty and utter tranquility. That’s about the best I can do in describing just the departure point from where this present life sequence is understood in context to an infinite whole. The sense of what we experience here is that of just one essential expression within an environmental medium’s array of experiencing sublime, infinite perfection. Like a 5 dimensional honeycombed landscape. I can craft no better description in words.

    The value derived in that witnessing seems simply to enable in its aftermath a contextual realization. Our human being is validated by way of counterpoint experience of relationship to an infinity of realities no more or less exquisite in their discrete composition and character.

    We belong to an intelligence of infinite creativity dynamically defining itself through each reality expression in broad perspective. Within that expression is the subdivision of each of our individual lives. All equally valuable to the net of that expression. All of common substance, all related, all capable and necessary to the whole.

    Once seen in that light one clearly understands the essential need for mutual respect, individual responsibility and compassion for the whole of humanity in all humility. If we’re destined as beings to overcome the self-destructive force in myopic irony of self-centered dominance, as it invariably imposes death in its narrow concentration, manifest in behaviors all around us, ISIL springs to mind as does Brzezinski, then we must visualize something diametric.

    So, Jan, when I consider the violence, suffering and exploitation that I see my fellow humans inflict on each other in the futile attempt to control and inhibit the creative and joyful participation of developing true intelligence I have to take pause and reflect that that expression of that human folly is an apparent counterpoint of necessity to establishing contrasting value between the ridiculous and the sublime.

    I’m a painter, Jan, and in compositional context sometimes it’s necessary for sake of the subjective aesthetic success of the intended image to include very hard lines of definition that may even seem discordant and dominant to other elements of the image. Some images are intended as invitations to discernment and merely as exercise of aesthetic process itself.

    While I may regard Sydney, and the MK lot, as wholly compromised, very bright but misguided humans, but traitors to their ostensible, respective disciplines, even delusional in thinking themselves something other than rats running in their own tier within a controlled maze of reverberating, co-opted power and ambition under the will of an occulted hierarchy, they are not gods. They do not represent an authority over human perception despite what they might imagine, nor what you may imagine their relative power in that regard to actually be.

    We need to see these gangster intellects for what they are. Puppets themselves in Kabuki drama of dead ended materialist delusion. Understanding their power matrix in context and identifying them individually is essential to defeating their mystique, but assuming them god-like power is fatally mistaken, in my view.

    Sorry, I ain’t got no religion, Jan.

  13. Keith McAlister
    September 7, 2014 at 7:37 pm

    When the Ebola concern first hit the media I got curious about Ebola as I knew little about it. I went to the CDC site to see what they had and I found this link that is just raw data reports tracking the disease, location and number of cases/death since 1976′.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/resources/outbreak-table.html

    I was left wondering after nearly 40 years of the disease, what is now causing it to explode at this point 4 times the amount of total cases as opposed to any other year?

    As I read about Ebola I was struck at the similarity it shared with the fictional disease in the mid-90’s film Outbreak starring Dustin Hoffman and Cuba Gooding Jr.

    Enjoyed the interview and looking forward to Round 3 & 4.

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