Karen of GirlWritesWhat interview – “The Feminist Fallacy” – #146

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Today for this controversial subject on feminism, I’m joined by my girlfriend Sarah who acts as co-host.

This episode is an interview with Karen, Host of GirlWritesWhat, titled “The Feminist Fallacy” and is being released on Friday, July 20, 2012. My interview with Karen was recorded on Tuesday, July 17, 2012.

GirlWritesWhat is a divorced mother of three, university drop out, and author of erotica who also writes and vlogs about gender issues. She considers herself both anti-feminist and anti-traditional, and has characterized feminism as “paternalism in lipstick”. She describes her philosophy as the radical notion that women are adults.

http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/

GirlWritesWhat on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

  45 comments for “Karen of GirlWritesWhat interview – “The Feminist Fallacy” – #146

  1. July 21, 2012 at 10:25 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Neg-Rlbi764&feature=player_embedded

    Andrea Smith: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide

    We had a good “anti-feminist” thread going on concen.org but I couldn’t find it. Basically the problem is how to be a “real man” and this gets into nonwestern initiation training secrets. The vagus nerve for starters.

    • robert42
      July 21, 2012 at 7:35 pm

      You’re incoherent.

      • Daniel Skipp
        September 22, 2012 at 4:20 am

        i know what he is talking about.. but then i have read almost all his writing and see much of the big picture.. so i see the coherence. you on the other hand are acting from prejudiced programming and so perceive obtusely.

    • July 25, 2012 at 12:17 pm

      “I want to be paid for sex”
      LOL. Me too.

      “Where did feminism originate?”
      Machines taking on a woman’s traditional workload may have contributed to this.

      Fascinating interview.

  2. G
    July 21, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Wow, this woman is really bright. She speaks so succinctly and enlightened me as a male living not only in a Zombie consumer bread and circus, BUT AS A INTELLIGENT MALE! Well done.

  3. robert42
    July 21, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Feminism is merely an effect of a bigger problem: the modern use of the university as a kind of freakish creche that takes in all manner of young people who would be better off just getting a job or starting a business and turns them into unemployable misfits and malcontents inculcated with various ideologies of victimhood.

    • IgnatiusLoyola
      July 22, 2012 at 6:41 am

      Now if only you had some proof or evidence of this claim…

      Speaking as a PhD candidate, the problem isn’t that University teaches people to be malcontents or makes them unemployable, it is that teaching methods isn’t teaching people how to apply their knowledge. So people become very narrow minded in their views. This is, surprisingly, accomplished through teaching methods that only show applications of ideas – because the students don’t learn the concept, they simply learn the application of it.

      • Jan Irvin
        July 22, 2012 at 11:58 am

        I think it’s a lot deeper than that. When you study John Taylor Gatto, for instance, and my 3 interviews with him, or the Ultimate History Lesson, you’ll see that there’s been an intentional effort to dumb down the education, make people reliant on “authorities”, and teach them what to think, not HOW to think. See also the trivium study section on the left.

      • robert42
        July 24, 2012 at 3:20 am

        The evidence is my own experience of attendance while acquiring a bachelor’s degree.

        Now if only you had more than a similar, personal perspective..

        OK, you want to discuss curricula, although I was actually talking about the whole culture of higher education:

        It’s been my observation, for example, that few, if any, students in the hard sciences become scientists, or even science academics. Instead, the final occupation that predominates is computer programming. Something similar occurs in the liberal arts, only more egregiously.

        It’s worse still amongst PhD’s: From my discussions with university teaqchers is that most PhD students end up in realtively menial roles unrelated to their area of study. Taxi driving, for example.

        Like I said, in most cases it would be better for most 18-20 year olds to avoid the whole thing and get a job or start a business. They would be a heck of a lot better off in getting a flying start in life.

      • July 27, 2012 at 8:18 am

        I’ve noticed this when talking to people who are PhD candidates and even recent postdocs in a number of fields. Now a PhD is supposed to be about original work, right? And yet even there, frequently, it’s mostly about regurgitating what’s already been known and finding some very teeny small new spin on it rather than thinking big and tackling serious problems; instead it’s about proving you “know your stuff” (which is supposed to be what you get your Master’s doing). It’s rather depressing to see really.

  4. AnthonyZarat
    July 22, 2012 at 4:16 am

    Bravo!

  5. July 22, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Hm. This is not the first time I’ve heard of Alison Armstrong. I do prefer Alison’s stance of coming from a place that people are basically trying to do good and trying to behave. Being nice works out in most negotiation situations according to game theory. Negotiations fall apart, you fall back to tit-for-tat. If you can’t do that, then you have to follow an entirely different paradigm. :(

    It is interesting to hear it here. Again, thank you for the interview and GWW thank you for your speaking out on the subject. I am male and I have lesbian friends. I have been present when a domestic violence (DV) took place and a male friend had to intercede in another lesbian DV event.

    I’m not sure exactly what to do in these situations let alone protect myself. On the other hand I do like to honor the best in people.

  6. doug
    July 22, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    she’s hot

  7. July 23, 2012 at 5:15 am

    Interesting and I will definitely listen again

    Issues: the women and birth control scenario
    That isn’t about women. It’s about aid for pharmaceutical corporations
    It’s no different then vaccines, which is also tax aid for profits for corporations
    That was a bit weak. If there was birth control for men, it would be paid for by taxpayers
    Problem with that scenario-it’s a tough sell.
    (that could change)

    The hunter scenario was a bit weak.(going on recall from the first listen two days ago)
    While men may have been the hunters due to the physical differences in strength, which is not sexism or feminism, is just is.
    Many hunts were not successful. Then everyone relied on the ability of the gathering of food. Which was largely conducted by, well.. not the men.

    Men: And I don’t think this is related to women, simply consumerism and society-
    Many, but not all men have become somewhat, no they have become more childlike.
    They stay childish longer. It is weird. Sure, I am “dating” myself here(showing my age)
    But men seem to want to act like overgrown teenagers until they are well into there 30′s and sometimes their forties.

    Young woman on the other hand think they have grown up because they have developed breasts with they accentuate with padded push up bras
    Well that must make them adult woman, right? Or so the advertising suggests?
    Also generally speaking men have to stop allowing themselves to be influenced by said breasts, bottoms and sexual techniques. Men succumb to that “influence”
    In other words stop thinking with your penis then women can’t lead you around by them

    “she’s hot”- doug.

    If women have to be adults then men have to be adults also
    It works both ways
    It doesn’t seem sensible to condemn one ism and create another one.
    That is just an opinion.

    • wardco
      July 23, 2012 at 11:17 am

      you’re killing me
      Just because a I have fully developed breasts or wood at day-break does not mean a thing unless you need that.
      No one has to be adult! It does not work. They suck!

    • RaggaRagga
      July 23, 2012 at 2:30 pm

      If you check out the trivium study section and the interviews with John Taylor Gatto he talks about how our education system and society prolongs childhood. He makes the case that it was implemented that way for a reason and with intent. But whether it was a conscious concerted cohort or an unconscious cabal it’s happening either way and we need to deal with it. :)

  8. July 23, 2012 at 5:17 am

    I liked her down to earth common sense kind of attitude and I loved her gift to her 18 year old son, perfect!

    I wish more parents were like that with their kids
    Welcoming them to the real world, rather then the digital one

  9. Blow_In
    July 23, 2012 at 5:33 am

    I grew up in the 1950s in a rural setting amongst descendants of Scandinavian people. It was the old days and the old ways. It wasn’t perfect, but the gender roles made sense and were flexible. There were a few “farmeretes”, a few girls in Shop Class and a few boys in Home Ec. We even had a couple of girls in boys choir. The strongest person in my class was a girl. [She was nice looking too].

    Flash forward to the early seventies. I had suddenly become a male single parent of female toddler. That was hard enough, but it gradually dawned on me that the main threat to me being able to keep my child were the radical feminists. I had do things like not allowing my daughter to see me naked after she was 6 in case she mentioned it in school. The man haters and their male sycophants were on the prowl. My realization of this was intuitive but accurate. A few cases of these types implanting false memories of sexual abuse in children came to light later on.

    Anyway, I managed to raise her up, and in spite of the fact that we were constantly strapped for cash and that my homemaking skills are borderline, she turned out pretty good.

    One benefit of this experience is that when a woman slips into a wacky feminist rant I can say, “You ain’t got nothin on me sister. I played both roles and if you want total equality you can do some of the dirty, hot, cold, painful and generally shitty work that I had to do to make a living.”

    For the most part though, the women I hung out with were quite reasonable. They may have had their radical feminist phase, but they matured out of it.

    This comment is more personal than I am comfortable with making on the Internet. I have done it in the hope that it adds to the discussion.

  10. July 24, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    I posted these comments over on Karen’s blog “owningyourshit.blogspot.com.” So for Karen to be better understood consider the below anthropologist comment — Karen’s ideas are summed up nicely when put into the larger context of Western civilization. Another good book is “Bananas, Beaches and Bases” by feminist professor Cynthia Enloe. Basically young women create “hard currency” for developing countries (i.e. bananas) — young women are favored for textile work and even food processing because they are nubile and more subservient. But then the males in those countries develop a “Edifice Complex” (a pun on Oedipus Complex) and Enloe points out this is why “White Elephants” are built — huge infrastructure to make the men have bigger phallus mentalities even though it doesn’t bring in good money. So this is on the periphery of the empire — like in China with electronics parts assembly, etc. Or on U.S. military bases needing young local women to “service” the men so that prostitution becomes huge in the Phillipines and Thailand, etc.

    So back in the U.S. the “techno-feminists” — well 56% of moms also have a “real” job now but the old school “housewives” as Karen points out — the second wave feminists — who use marriage as a means to bilk their husbands for more consumer power — this only works in the context of the larger imperial dynamics. This is why we need international solidarity – -like the Workers Rights Consortium I helped organize at the University of Minnesota — a coalition of Universities boycotting sweatshops that supply sports apparel — this way Nike, etc. is forced to pay young females a better wage to support their extended families as they are not able to finish high school, etc.

    fulllotus21 July 2012 12:36

    Hi Karen: I am listening to your gnosticmedia interview. I first commented on one of your youtube vids posted on concen.org. I hope you dig this from Anthropologist Shelly Ornter’s book Making Gender: The Politics and Erotics of Culture (1996) on the domestication of men.

    “At the same time, there is a great shift in the ideology concerning women. Before they were dangerous, but now they are said to be in danger, justifying male
    protection and guardianship. Before they were polluting, and this had to be defended against, but now they are said to be pure, and to need defending. At the same time, one finds for the first time symbolic idealization of woman in their mother-aspect, rather than in the sexual-reproductive aspect. Eventually, as the symbol system gets itself together in one part of the world with which we are all
    familiar, the ideal women emerges as all the best things at once, mother and virgin.

    Now the way in which I’ve described the pattern, and the way in which it might, at first glance, be viewed, is in terms of the domestication of women, a sort of
    Neolithic of the sexes wherein women, like plants and animals, were brought under control in the service of the race. Actually, however, my thinking is to envision the process in terms of the beginnings of the domestication of men, as part of a larger pattern of systemization of hierarchy and control in the evolution of state structures. I will return to this point later. (p. 50)

    (p. 53) The family became in a sense an administrative unit, the base unit in the political-economic structure of the state. The husband/father was no longer simply
    responsible to his family, but also for his family vis-a-vis the larger system. It became the base, and often the only base of his jural status. The reluctance of males to be involved with their families except on terms of
    distance, respect, and submission of the part of the other members is still I think to be seen in most of the world today, and the domestication of men is still largely
    incomplete.

    Male initiation rites virtually disappear in state societies…. In many cases marriage itself becomes the only rite of passage, and thus manhood becomes equated with responsibility for wife and children, part of the pattern described above. The pivotal point of such analysis would be that men were not only ‘domesticated’ as part of the crystallization of authority structures of the state; they were also juvenilized — vis-a-vis women, senior men, and the rulers and overclasses of the system. Note that I have not tried to postulate motives for either women or men in this process. I have suggested that men were ‘reluctant’ about being domesticated, but I would imagine that women had equally mixed feelings about the greater presence of male authority in the family unit.

    The way out of the puzzle, I would suggest, lies in stressing the stratified nature of the state as a totality, and seeking the dynamics of the process in the interaction
    between elites and lower strata. In particular, my analytic instinct is to look at patterns of hypergamy (up-status marriage, virtually always between upper men
    and lower women) in state systems, and to consider very centrally the possibility that one of the significant developments in stratified societies was the shifting of
    marriage from an essentially lateral transaction, between essentially equal groups, to at least a potentially vertical transaction, wherein one’s sister or daughter is
    potentially a wife or consort of a king or nobleman, or could be dedicated to the temple and the services of the priesthood.”
    ReplyDelete
    fulllotus21 July 2012 13:23

    Karen — you said Afghanistan for the below comparison – I think you meant Iraq? Iraq was called the “Germany” of the Middle East by the UN due to their free state high tech healthcare. I’m not sure this stat still holds since the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq. I mean is it “poor” men in the U.K. versus “poor” women in Iraq? I get this:

    http://geography.about.com/b/2007/05/08/life-expectancy-in-iraq.htm

    Due to the years of war and violence in Iraq, it is one of the few non-African countries to have a drop in life expectancy. Iraqi life expectancy in 1990 for males and females from birth was 66.5, now the Population Reference Bureau reports that life expectancy for both sexes in Iraq has dropped to a mere 59 and for males alone the life expectancy from birth is 57.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/13-reasons-its-unlucky-to-be-a-man/

    In the City of Brighton & Hove in England, boys from the poorest neighbourhoods die THIRTEEN YEARS SOONER than girls from the richest areas and yet women’s projects still receive THIRTEEN TIMES MORE FUNDING THAN MEN’S PROJECTS

    Amazingly, girls in Iraq (71.3), India (72.6) and Indonesia (73.4) now live longer than a boy born in East Brighton (70.9 years).

  11. July 25, 2012 at 6:49 am

    I’m glad Karen has the ovaries not to censor posts on her blog — unless they are obvious ad hominems, etc. but my first comment that was attacked here with and ad hominem (I’m incoherent?) and then my 2nd comment was moderated into oblivion….so now I will attempt to clarify.

    I was referring to this thread at concen — http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=45492&highlight=feminist I posted a comment there that I have reposted on Karen’s Owning Your Shit blog — it took four comment sections as my concen thread post was quite long.

    • robert42
      July 26, 2012 at 3:01 am

      “Ad hominem” does not equal a negative comment upon your communication. So now you’re not only incoherent, but innacurate in identifying a common fallacy.

      • July 26, 2012 at 6:35 pm

        The comment stated that I was incoherent not that what “I wrote” or “communicated” was incoherent.

        You again repeated the error stating I “am” incoherent. There is a whole philosophy based on not using the verb “to be” precisely because of this logical error.

        Now as to whether the comment of being “incoherent” can apply to an ad hominem as you claim is not possible I present to you this:

        “In one sense, an ad hominem argument is an argument in which you offer premises that you the arguer don’t accept, but which you know the listener does accept, in order to show that his position is incoherent (as in, for example, the Euthyphro dilemma).”

        http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/ad-hominem/

        Now if you consider the content of what I wrote in the links I presented — then I can also add that you have a lower chakra blockage — which means your brain is hard-wired not to understand the information I present.

        So essentially you’re confirming the exact problem I am identifying – what Gurdjieff called a Number One person. It’s an arena of information entirely unsuitable to your ability to understand.

        So yes I am incoherent to you — I agree with you — but that does not mean I am incoherent to others. haha.

        I do have a masters degree from the University of Minnesota and I did take women studies courses at the University of Wisconsin-Madison as an undergrad and then at U of MN for a “race, class and gender” course in the African Studies department. Then I did a self-directed qigong training course with http://springforestqigong.com Master Chunyi Lin based on the book The Racial Contract by Charles Mills which was inspired by the Sexual Contract.

        So my point is that the issue of sexism and feminism needs to be considered the larger context of Western civilization. Of course this is “incoherent” to Westerners! haha. But this is a podcast website based on altered states of consciousness and logical analysis.

        BTW I am writing this — not for you to understand — but for others reading this to understand as I’ve already realized you are not able to understand what I write.

        So actually the secret model for understanding logical fallacies is through the “logos” as nonwestern trance music training — this is the focus of my masters thesis published online as Epicenters of Justice — 2000 — http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol12/articles/epi-justice1.shtml

  12. Sparticus
    July 25, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Divide and conquer! No one has mentioned the FACT that it was a CIA front company that funded feminism!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem this was on Wikipedia of all places,

  13. July 26, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    drew hempel on July 26, 2012 at 6:35 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    The comment stated that I was incoherent not that what “I wrote” or “communicated” was incoherent.

    You again repeated the error stating I “am” incoherent. There is a whole philosophy based on not using the verb “to be” precisely because of this logical error.

    Now as to whether the comment of being “incoherent” can apply to an ad hominem as you claim is not possible I present to you this:

    “In one sense, an ad hominem argument is an argument in which you offer premises that you the arguer don’t accept, but which you know the listener does accept, in order to show that his position is incoherent (as in, for example, the Euthyphro dilemma).”

    http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/ad-hominem/

    • robert42
      July 27, 2012 at 10:40 am

      Uh look, if you’re going to complain about ad hominem then please make it clearly about an example of ad hominem instead of tedious hair splitting.

      Here’s my ad hominem assessment of you: “You’re a moron.” Now, complain away.

  14. July 26, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Now if you consider the content of what I wrote in the links I presented — then I can also add that you have a lower chakra blockage — which means your brain is hard-wired not to understand the information I present.

    So essentially you’re confirming the exact problem I am identifying – what Gurdjieff called a Number One person. It’s an arena of information entirely unsuitable to your ability to understand.

    So yes I am incoherent to you — I agree with you — but that does not mean I am incoherent to others. haha.

    I do have a masters degree from the University of Minnesota and I did take women studies courses at the University of Wisconsin-Madison as an undergrad and then at U of MN for a “race, class and gender” course in the African Studies department. Then I did a self-directed qigong training course with http://springforestqigong.com Master Chunyi Lin based on the book The Racial Contract by Charles Mills which was inspired by the Sexual Contract.

    So my point is that the issue of sexism and feminism needs to be considered the larger context of Western civilization. Of course this is “incoherent” to Westerners! haha. But this is a podcast website based on altered states of consciousness and logical analysis.

    BTW I am writing this — not for you to understand — but for others reading this to understand as I’ve already realized you are not able to understand what I write.

    So actually the secret model for understanding logical fallacies is through the “logos” as nonwestern trance music training — this is the focus of my masters thesis published online as Epicenters of Justice — 2000 — http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol12/articles/epi-justice1.shtml

  15. July 26, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Now if you consider the content of what I wrote in the links I presented — then I can also add that you have a lower chakra blockage — which means your brain is hard-wired not to understand the information I present.

    So essentially you’re confirming the exact problem I am identifying – what Gurdjieff called a Number One person. It’s an arena of information entirely unsuitable to your ability to understand.

    So yes I am incoherent to you — I agree with you — but that does not mean I am incoherent to others. haha.

    I do have a masters degree from the University of Minnesota and I did take women studies courses at the University of Wisconsin-Madison as an undergrad and then at U of MN for a “race, class and gender” course in the African Studies department. Then I did a self-directed qigong training course with http://springforestqigong.com Master Chunyi Lin based on the book The Racial Contract by Charles Mills which was inspired by the Sexual Contract.

  16. July 26, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    So my point is that the issue of sexism and feminism needs to be considered the larger context of Western civilization. Of course this is “incoherent” to Westerners! haha. But this is a podcast website based on altered states of consciousness and logical analysis.

    BTW I am writing this — not for you to understand — but for others reading this to understand as I’ve already realized you are not able to understand what I write.

    So actually the secret model for understanding logical fallacies is through the “logos” as nonwestern trance music training — this is the focus of my masters thesis published online as Epicenters of Justice — 2000 — http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol12/articles/epi-justice1.shtml

  17. Myles.
    July 26, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    Superb interview, and since I haven’t said it yet, good to have you back in action Jan.

  18. July 28, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    I’ve posted my further comments on Karen’s blog http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/

  19. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    I am a male nurse. I work with 95% women. All that Karen said is right on and very much needs to be talked about. Most women aren’t militant feminists but have a continuous low grade feminist attitude which generally shows up as disrespect, condescension and disregard towards and for men. It is so deep in the psyche that most women can’t even recognize it.

    The unnecessary dissension, tension and general antagonism is a pervasive and slow moving cancer in our society. Thanks to Karen for being so brave.

    • el
      August 22, 2012 at 11:49 am

      er um. you are a nurse. what is the signifigance of you being a male nurse?

      • Jan Irvin
        August 22, 2012 at 11:51 am

        I think, Elly, he’s saying that because he’s a male nurse, he’s attacked for that… which is what this show is about.

  20. Bart
    August 9, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Hey Jan,
    Is the opening monologue you started with from her youtube channel? Or will I have to put on my miner gear to go search those nuggets on her blog space or….
    Great interview and guest. Not that I was all pro-feminism, but it’s good to hear some of the points she makes. I felt positively in possesion of a much more well-rounded viewpoint after listening to this.

    • Jan Irvin
      August 9, 2012 at 9:07 am

      Yeah, it’s her feminism rant. She does have a video of it. I don’t have a link.

  21. valiantX
    August 18, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    “All ideologies are idiotic, whether religious or political, for it is conceptual thinking, the conceptual word, which has so unfortunately divided man.” Jiddu Krishnamurti

    I expect no less from the masses these days to follow ideologies like ‘feminism,’ because ‘critical thinking’ is practically absent in most people and even to think of questioning against the norm, has played a detrimental factor to social growth and had helped continue expanding this movement or ideology – responsibility and integrity are absent in society as well. Feminism movement is but a reflection of masculism, it’s just another elitist dichotomy to destroy humanity; I’m glad there are still the few exposing and informing the public of these hegelian type organizations of their lies.

    By the way, great interview Jan, Sarah, and Karen, thanks for the information.

    • el
      August 22, 2012 at 11:51 am

      well its taken almost 40 years to see the fruits of it. Now we will see the fruits of role reversals at home now as well.

      a house divided can not stand.

  22. Caelidh
    August 29, 2012 at 5:55 am

    I know that I should wait until I hear the ENTIRE interview but I tend to listen to the podcasts over several hours at work and even if I write down notes I forget my points.

    I would like to say that I never considered myself a “feminist” either. I went to Antioch College during the early 90′s during the “Sexual Offense Policy”. I already had 4 years of College under my belt from another university before I came to Antioch. (that was more mainstream btw). While I do still respect my Antioch experience I will say that I saw a LOT of BS Feminism and was a “victim” of the PC culture and witnessed the man hating initiatory process that many women students went through during their tenure at Antioch.

    Many women/girls (or WOMYN ;>) came to antioch and by the end of the 1st quarter they had shaved their heads.

    My first year I was living in a dorm and there was a TAKE BACK THE NIGHT march on campus. A woman who lived in my dorm literally dragged me out of the doorway where I was choosing to be a passive observer of the march (not allowed of course). So, I go on this march . I think the march was instigated by an alleged “date rape” event.(more on this later because I believe this was THE event that triggered the imfamouse SEXUAL OFFENSE POLICY So I march with these students, women.. and they are chanting and screaming etc.. I witnessed many women banging on the men students doors and ranting about men being rapists etc.. it was VERY disconcerting. The next day I hear more stories about women beating on mens doors… and calls for rapists etc.. My entire time at antioch I saw grafitti about how men were rapists .. some even mentioned men by name on bathroom stalls. It was horrific. A friend of mines male friend ended up being accused of rape, ended up in prison and dying of hepatitus he got in prison..

    I never agreed with the Militant feminist movement. I even got a stern lecture by my dorm advisor (a feminist) about something I left in the common room (long story but it was some comics I had altered late one night that were not very PC). She attacked me for not being for women and didn’t I think it was offensive that women were referred to as “girls”??? “NO” I replied. She went on about how horrified she was when she was out with her grandmother and her grandmothers friends at a resturant and the waiter came up and said “hello girls”.. she thought it was VERY DISREPECTFUL. She said I didn’t belong at Antioch and maybe I should just leave the school. I was very aggravated by that situation.

    If you don’t know what the Sexual Offense Policy was/is… You could google it and Antioch and see what comes up.

    I will state that things seem to be better and more mature. Instead of signs against men doing all the date raping.. there are signs that say “drunk sex is NOT consensual sex” etc.. it places responsibility on BOTH the man and the woman … which is a step forward.

    Years later I went to my reunion and we talked about that time and the men admitted they were terrified and traumatised and were afraid to date for years afterwords. The women I spoke to also said it was very overboard. That was a very traumatic time for many students at Antioch and I think in retrospect it was definately a learning experience. I do know that to this day there are definately probably a lot of women who still hate men and are serious FEMINISTS.

    The PC culture was stifling.. I was never allowed to even refer to my OWN friends as “Girls” they were ALWAYS to be referred to as WOMYN (spelled with the Y of course). I got reprimanded verbally on many occassions..

    Yuck…

    Thanks

  23. Caelidh
    August 29, 2012 at 6:45 am

    I want to add regarding the personal responsibility issue. I agree that it IS onerous to lay the burden of responsibilty for EVERYTHING at a man’s feet. I think that with human conscious evolution that we should be seeking a mature and sovereign and BALANCED attitude in our lives. Women should never be the property of men and men shouldn’t have to feel it is thier duty to be responsible for their wives (or extended families) because we should, as individuals be sovereign and responsible for ourselves. Should there be cooperation and compassion? SURELY!. (and I will have to wait and see if you make any comment regarding the issue of women in Middle Eastern countries who seem to dealing with that issue of again being the property of men etc.. )

    Another situation that occured while my time at Antioch (that apparently ended up as a “joke” but wasn’t too far off). One semester I was moving into my dorm. In the bathrooms there was a little stack of these forms. They were sex “contracts” .

    “We the undersigned agree to engage in the following sexual acts” (and a list of various sexual acts were listed). It was SUPPOSED to be signed by the Dean of students and filed somewhere. At the time, I honestly thought this was for real. Years later I met the woman who made these up and set them out as a joke. Yet the culture at the school was so heavy I thought OH MY GODS now what!

    I agree that there is this culture where it says “women are strong and smart” yet we need all these LAWS to protect you. I know a lot of women to this day who are NOT strong or smart. YEt, as I stated before, I think part of what should be the process is that regardless of your sex, you should be responsible and aware. Not that that implies anything like “Women, don’t dress like sluts and you won’t get raped”

    Men are equally as responsible for THEIR actions. (and not give in to their base behavior by attacking women cause the woman is dressing suggestively etc)

  24. Caelidh
    August 29, 2012 at 7:13 am

    Birth Control/THE PILL

    Ok, this is where I diverge with you.

    #1. I believe that birth control is good. I believe that having affordable access to birth control IS part of a women (and mans) right to control the creation of offspring.

    There are women who DO use birth control for things OTHER than preventing pregnancy. It is used to control menstrual pain, endometriosus and other health issues.

    http://news.health.ufl.edu/2012/18504/multimedia/health-in-a-heartbeat/women-taking-birth-control-pills-for-reasons-other-than-contraception/

    I realise that some may say that the evidence is faulty regarding this but I do know several women who do use birth control for JUST that purpose.

    Since women bear mostly the FULL COST of pregnancy and later, the cost of the child I think I, as a TAXPAYER would prefer to prevent such preganancies rather than later costs (as a Taxpayer) of taking care of said children and their inevitable costs on down the road. I work in the mental health field (non profit) I see first hand women who end up having 3 + children and are on welfare and have multiple fathers. I see the real life issues with custody battles, the children that come in because of abuse, neglect etc.. End up in the foster care system. The parents who are on drugs, have these kids by accident, run off, the kids end up in the system, parents who have the kids for a check (and yes, that is true that this does happen). While the overall issues of this kind of behavior can be complex and is linked to other institutional issues that are prevalent… I still feel that having access to controlling procreation is essential to liberty and free consciousness. I do NOT in anyway see birth control as some kind of “eugenics’ issue. Sorry, I don’t see that evidence at all!.

    • Jan Irvin
      August 29, 2012 at 8:17 am

      Hi Caelidh, again you’re leaping to conclusions, saying things that weren’t said, and before you’ve even heard the interview. Why do you make me go round and round with you over this behavior of yours? Why would you ever comment at all before you’ve heard the show? How many times do we have to repeat to you that GRAMMAR GOES FIRST? I read one point of yours: “. I believe that birth control is good.” That’s all I read. I couldn’t read any further.

      “I believe” – start with an appeal to belief. Are you serious? That’s a good way to start out your point when you haven’t listened to the interview first. You’re ignoring all of the BAD the pill does too, like maybe you missed my Curtis Duncan interview… where we discuss how birth control is in the water and causing massive health problems for men, and lowing male birth rates, and making baby boys penises smaller, etc. How it causes massive problems for women. Maybe you’ve ignored how the pill was brought in by Margaret Sanger for EUGENICS. You think it’s all about your choice because you don’t study a damned thing before you get all uppity all over my site and facebook page every week before you’ve even studied the material.

      Keep your statist “rob from me to pay for your sex and child” shit off of me and out of my life. Take responsibility for your vagina. Women have TOTAL control over their fertility today, as we discussed. There is NO REASON FOR YOU TO EXTORT MONEY FROM OTHERS TO PAY FOR YOUR CROTCH!

      How about we educate them and give them the trivium and critical thinking instead of stealing money from others to pay for their children? It’s the system that has created most of this mess in the first place – the same one you want to run to for solutions.

      I think I asked you maybe a couple dozen times before if you ever watched MAAFA 21. Did you? Are we back to going in circles there again?

      Please do me a favor and don’t start off with “I believe” – as this isn’t a Christian discussion group. Please also listen to the interviews in full, as you’ve been warned many times before, before you go blathering all over my site. I really appreciate it when you’re focused on what’s being discussed rather than your emotions, and are able to give real, critical feedback that’s filtered through the trivium that we can all learn and grow from. But when you do this crap of half way or completely ignoring information before you comment, well, it gets old and tiring and a waste of mine and everyone else’s time.

      So try to focus on the real words and evidence being said and provided AND THEN comment – and not one second before. Thanks.

  25. Caelidh
    August 29, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    overall pretty good interview.
    I have struggled myself with the FEMINIST TITLE. I never felt the need or the desire to call myself a FEMINIST or be involved in FEMINIST pursuits. I grew up with a strong role model. My parents were divorced. My mother raised me by herself and she was an MD. She went to Medical School (she also was from Canada btw) during a time when few women did. I think there was no more than 10 women in her graduating class in 1958? Her father, ironically INSISTED that she go into Medical School (she apparently wanted to be an astronomer). I was an only child and ended up going to an all girls Catholic school. I never ever felt oppressed as a woman or a girl. (this was the 70′s. post Womens LIBERATION era). Honestly, my perspective was that there was a definate cultural force on my generation to go out there and ACHIEVE BIG THINGS. The HS I went to ended up removing their Home Ec dept and the entire curriculum was then geared towards the College Preparatory degree. It was expected that I would go off and get my Bachelors etc.. I recall looking at previous photographs of the senior classes at my school some of the seniors chose to be NUNS and were already in the novitiate (sp?) they had little habits on and everything.

    While I feel it is great that women are no longer denied a college degree or told “you can’t do this or that cause you are a GIRL or a WOMAN” I honestly feel I was denied something because home ec was denied to me!. “Oh you won’t need to learn how to cook.. so we will just throw that way.. Sewing? nah! etc”.. I taught myself how to knit and crochet AND cook and a little bit of sewing. I really felt my choices were narrowed during the 80′s and all the expectations of the Womens Liberation movement were heaped upon me and my fellow women because of their mothers expectations. We were probably the first real generation that had some of these full opportunities. I remember the “I can bring home the bacon” perfume ad’s. ICK!. I never identified with that.. or women in the drastic harsh football field shoulder pad POWER SUIT. I saw “strong” women who were just bitches!.. They felt they had to be harsh and bitchy and pushy to keep up with the men.

    I worked at a company where the owner was a woman. Her husband was the manager. This was a stair parts company and there was a mill factory where some really rough men (ex cons etc) worked. We had to deal with providing stair parts to places like HD etc.. Some of these men from HD and want to speak to MR so and so .. we had to correct them that it was a WOMAN that was the Boss… She honestly was a bear to work for. Very aggressive and it seemed like she had to overcompensate .

    so.. honestly, I think there is a LOT OF gender confusion. I am tired of the “princess vs warrior” programming so prevalent in our culture. The women in the music industry that are being paraded out there like Maddona, Brittany etc.. lots of sex and violence in that arena.. yet myself growing up I never felt oppressed as a woman. I played with Barbie.. NO problems.. yet today I do tend to see women and girls dressing like well.. prostitutes and I don’t know what is going on..

    I personally am comfortable with my gender.. I want to homestead, cook, sew, be nurtuing. I have no desire to “bring home the bacon” and my bf and I generally have fairly equal roles but he is stronger than me so does more of the heavy lifting… and right now I am the primary bacon aquiring individual…. so.. go fig…

    Just a first hand account of some of MY experiences as a woman.

    Thanks for that thought provoking interview.

  26. Alex
    September 12, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Where can we get the link to the video where she speaks at the start, cause so fucking right how she places that rhetoric with logic and grammar.

  27. October 13, 2012 at 8:20 am

    Great interview! Those 2 hours went by in an instant. This woman kicks ass.

  28. Paul
    October 29, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    I hate adding to an already long thread, but I have to say that if nothing else, that interview was good radio. Very entertaining. Like Amir says, those 2 hours went by in an instant.

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