This episode is with Prof. Jay Courtney Fikes and Joe Atwill, titled âA Conversation About Mind Controlâ and is being released on Friday, Dec 07, 2012. This conversation with Joe and Jay was was recorded on November 05, 2012.
Joseph Atwill has been on 3 times before today, and Prof. Jay Fikes has been on once before.
You may hear the previous episodes with Joe Atill, which are numbers 141, 148 and 152:
- April #141
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/CaesarsMessiah
– August #148
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/joe-atwill-interview-pt-2-on-caesars-messiah-john-allegro-and-mind-control-148/
- September #152
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/joe-atwill-fritz-heede-and-nijole-sparkis-titled-a-round-table-discussion-on-caesars-messiah-and-more-152/
My previous interview with Jay Courtney Fikes is episode #118.
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/prof-jay-courtney-fikes-interview-huichol-peyote-and-the-carlos-castaneda-deception-118/
This is our third video episode, so if youâre getting this in audio only, please go to the Gnostic Media website if youâd like to see the video version.
My apologies for the long delay in getting this episode out, weâve been dealing with a lot of other issues, including the flu, which Iâm just now getting over. We also had a serious learning curve to get this video the way we wanted it, and obviously thereâs a lot more to learn. Please excuse the lighting as it wasnât optimal and I couldnât get Jay and Joe to change seats. There are a few other minor glitches that weâre learning to deal with as we progress and learn.
Joseph Atwillâs been on 3 times previous to this, and so he should be familiar to most of you. If heâs not, please hear his long introduction from one of his other interviews, as itâs too long to recap here, and heâs a familiar face. No offense, Joe. http://caesarsmessiah.com/blog/
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After completing his doctorate in anthropology at the University of Michigan in 1985, Jay Fikes taught in several universities and wrote the biography of Reuben Snake (a Native American activist and spiritual leader) while lobbying to pass national legislation to protect the religious freedom of peyotistsâsome 300,000 members of the Native American Church. Since 1999 he has been a Professor of Social Anthropology at Yeditepe University in Istanbul, Turkey. In his latest book, Unknown Huichol: Shamans and Immortals, Allies against Chaos, Jay Fikes summarizes what he learned from four Huichol shamans during 34 years of ethnographic research, including participation in peyote rituals and making pilgrimages to contact their gods. He is now translating Huichol myths and songs recited in various rituals, preparing a biography of JesĂșs GonzĂĄlez (a shaman from Tuxpan) and writing a sequel to his expose; Carlos Castaneda, Academic Opportunism and the Psychedelic Sixties.
http://www.jayfikes.com/
Weâve got new Gnostic Media book marks that have the fallacies on the back of them for each book order. We also plan to sell those individually to those interested. Weâll also be getting the first 4 years, rather than the first 3 years DVD out soon. My apologies for the delay on getting these items finished.
Furthermore, we have a new joint project that Joe and Jay and I are working on and we may as well use this episode to introduce the new project, and though itâs not fully up and running yet, youâre more than welcome to see what weâve got going thus far. The new project is located at www.mindcontrolexposed.com. Youâll find a couple of my articles that you may have already seen up there, and youâll find a brand new article by Joe up there, and much more to come, including this episode on mind control.
Or:
Download video – 1.4GB
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This was really amazing.
Thanks so much Jan.
The mention of the bands from the 60′s reminded me of Aleister Crowley being on the cover of the beatles albums as well as his involvement with british intelligence. This is a great book written by someone who you could potentially interview.
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Agent-666-Aleister-Intelligence/dp/1932595333/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354995967&sr=8-1&keywords=aleister+crowley+666
I think it ties in directly to what you were all discussing in this interview.
Fascinating stuff.
Ryan, Spence’s book is highly speculative and draws circumstantial inferences from very flimsy premises. I would suggest Marco Pasi’s more substantial research. You might also get more from Tobias Churton’s recent biography of Aleister Crowley, his book launch video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPEmn4knfQE
If you really feel like going into greater depth about the implications of secret service shenanigans in the political morality of Thelema, I recommend Marcelo Ramos Motta’s 2-part essay Intelligent Services are Not Intelligent, a History of the OTO Since Crowley’s Death. You will find it extremely difficult to find this however. There is a version at http://www.castletower.org/mwt.html
I cannot vouch for this online edition of Magick Without Tears Unexpurgated, Commented Part I, that appears to be imperfectly contrived, but it looks to be a faithful copy of the original published text (1983ce.) The first part of Motta’s essay is at the end of this book.
I have been unsuccessful in finding on this particular site part II of Magick Without Tears Unexpurgated, Commented (1984ce,) to which the second instalment of Motta’s original essay was also appended.
If you were interested enough to read the whole thing, I might be able to help you acquire the original text that is accessible elsewhere in its entirety. It is worth noting that Motta’s books now fetch extremely high prices. The reasons for this are open to differing interpretations.
But for serious historians of, and contributors to, contemporary “occulture” this is arguably one of the most revealing documents of its type extant.
Nice talk. I’m totally on the same wave length regarding the history of many of the Rock musicians who have Military connected family.
There are some characters who I so far have no basis to be DIRECTLY connected with CIA or other society swaying projects funded or orchestrated by a hidden hand who are simple circumstantial players who got caught in scene either through media lens or author script such as the one guy you guys kept bringing up, Vito Paulekas. The guy was a friend of Eden Abez and they were turned on at some point to the archaic but that is not always a negative or sinister. I have this point of view as I always felt that being at one with the earth and stripping away commercial values was a humane thing way before I ever heard of psychedelics and such. What turned me to this view was the decadence of being put into a christian school surrounding and feeling intuitively the contradiction of it all. Other things in life solidified this for me.
So back to the fact alot of people simply were caught up and actually helped create scenes out of coinciding circumstance that the project masters could easily craft their projected ideas with to then sway the public as a big dupe. So basically stealing ideas to
have the public front shadow show. Vito to me is simply the archetype of what they wanted. Not the other way around.
I have absolutely no proof but it’s just a feeling and not even to protect something. I just wanted to share that aspect after hearing you guys kind of focus on him a few times in the segment. It’s like talking about dancers in other cultures who get caught up in Ecstatic motions with others who are under trances from either plant drugs or stamina games .
You guys had the break though where you did mention there is SO many aspects that are already laid out and set to history
that it’s impossible to get clarity on alot so much is definitely fodder, hard to rectify.
I respect when 3 guys can get together without using attacks on people or talking shit about others.
Of note there is a huge field especially in music of the 60s that can be shown as an example of people simply caught up in the whole thing also being turned on so to speak but without the Leary influence or what have you and they are the small garage rock groups that had a message in their music. That is very interesting to me and alot is a nice snapshot of a new direction which did not last long once the big labels gobbled up the edges so small town recording studios could no longer press up these micro quantities of interesting music by basically kids who see the hypocrisy . Leading into the big labels then you have that hidden hand either buying up those interesting writers and in many cases once bought, destroying them as the case of Bobby Jameson who -this ties in with Vito – was featured in the movie Mondo Hollywood and he was spit out and left for dead since he was naive yet talented and had a message. He wrote a scathing anti Vietnam song which tripped him up for good.
I’m still trying to find out a little more about Neil Young, who I think might also be one of those talented kids who was used as the spotlight for others. Look who gravitated to him, all the Laurel Canyon cats. And Neil was from here in Canada. His dad was a Writer for media and books though so there is some things that are questionable. Not sure if he’s hoodwinking at us or them. He has polarized people like David Geffen so it seems to me he’s for the spirit of humanity not governing corporate interest.
Joni Mitchell is similar and she openly talks smack about people like Bob Dylan who she calls out as a fraud and Plagiarist
and then you have Jimi Hendrix who escaped being an actual Military automaton to go on and share his love with the world
in an immense way….to then be destroyed by the big mac.(hine)
Any-hoo! Ciao!
Dave McGowan did some interesting work on this topic(found it here http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.de/2012/06/inside-laurel-canyon-by-dave-mcg.)
Yeah good link, McGowan was the first guy I personally heard talk about these concepts a few years back. There is wealth of his stuff online for sure. Another guy that is on McGowans book tails – is Eric Karlstrom who I incidentally heard on Spingola speaks this morning.
I must add, I did more research into Vito – of the Freaks and regardless if he was a co-opt insider or happenstance dancer – from what I can gather now, he was quite the scumbag so I get what Fikes, Atwill were getting at. McGowan says he’s working on stuff about VIto and his circle in particular.
have you read about the Laurel Canyon-Manson-MK Ultra connections?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread861138/pg1
I know its a questionable site like ATS, but Im assuming you can think for yourself with the info provided.
Now I have to wonder how much of the actual music was fake too, ie: was the music written for them by paid ghostwriters , maybe some of it even recorded for them by studio session musicians?
I have heard allegations of a similar nature for awhile now. One thing that seems to jibe with that is that some bands seem incapable of sounding the same live as they sound on their records.
George Bush seniors code name with the secret service was Magog.
Atwill never mentions Friedrich Nietzsche in his book. This is understandable in view of Atwill’s analysis being an historical one, while Nietzsche’s concept of Christianity (detailed in “The Antichrist”) as a deliberately designed slave religion was the result of a philosophical analysis. And yet the two approaches converge.
But, Nietzsche went a bit further, with his concept of the overman, who is above Nietzsche’s posited slave morality of “good and evil.”
Other organized religions are no different, from the Nietzschean perspective: Consider Islam (which translates as “submission”), which is a big collection of argumenta verecundiam: Do this, that and the other simply because The Prophet said so.
Not everyone’s a philosopher, or even has the time or inclination to be a student of history (present company excepted), so what remains for ordinary people to draw a framework around their lives?
What does this have to do with…anything?
What does this have to do withâŠanything?
Actually, it has the following to do with the topic of conversation:
1. I noticed an interesting convergence of lines of intellectual investigation and I thought that someone else might find it of interest. Namely, the conclusion that Atwill came to with his typology and historical analysis is similar to Nietzsche’s philosophical conclusion: That Christianity is a deliberately designed slave religion, for control of the population. If Ryan is not interested in, or uncomprehending of, that then that’s fine, and he is most welcome to shove his halfwit sarcasm up his ass.
2. I would like to know what existential structures might replace Christianity for its adherents. I’m not defending Christianity, and have discarded it for myself a long time ago, but I’m simply noting that human beings always have and probably have to have philosophical frameworks that enable them to function and to get through their lives. What might that be for average people. Other religions are just as slave-oriented. Intellectual tools such as the trivium are tools rather than philosophies, so that’s not sufficient. In other words, after smashing the idols then what?
Of course, these comments are directed to the intelligent reader, rather than to the fuckwit who prompted me to elaborate here.
According to Mark Passio’s research the worship of God is being replaced by money, and religion replaced by government.
LOL!
Question: Has worship of money replaced worship of God?
Answer: IMO, yes. Just look around–
Question: Has belief in religion been replaced by the belief in Govt?
Answer: IMO, yes. Just look around–
But more importantly–what do YOU think??
robert, you never asked WHY or HOW people come to need these “existanal structures”
as if, humanity has EVER been free to exercise an existance without these “existanal structures”
just because weve “always had religion” dosent mean we need it, even if it makes you feel good.
Religion seems to be a replacement for critical thinking imo. When have we EVER been without it?
LOL!
robert, im having A LOT of fun reading your commments!
the answer to #2 is learning the Trivium/Quadrivium.
Im just not sure you are ready to accept the answer.
yo, did you miss the point that the Trivium is based on how you and your brain actually interact with the world around us? Its not some mystical mumbo-jumbo as you want it to be. Truth is you and I both use the tools of the Trivium NATURALLY. That the Trivium Method is what was discovered by man ages ago about how we know what we know?
Im going to make an assumption here that you dont use it because you cant admit youve had it buried under decades of mind-control.
The correct use of the mind is litterally how our Civilizations have risen and the incorrect use is how its fallen.
And you act like somehow your brain is different than everyone else!
You’re assuming too much. I am indeed a student of the trivium. And as I said, it is a set of tools, and not an existential framework. It is like having a fine set of carpenter’s tools that don’t tell one what to make.
Now as it happens, I have a framework of my own devising, that provides me with enough equilibrium and peace.
But even so, to quote Dexter* “I’ve moved on from my father, but I still need his code.”
And the vast majority of people are 100% second-handers who habitually live by the mores of their forebears and contemporaries. They will necessarily adopt what is handed to them during their formative years and cannot imagine changing anything. So what of them? They won’t be “left to themselves,” since *someone* will fill the void.
* Which I downloaded at the highest recommendation of Mark Passio, and worth the time to watch.
Shit I guess if we werent so busy WORKING for NOTHING we would have all kinds of time to think of new inventions, solve problems, inhance our health, increace our presonal spiritually–who knows?
We certainly wouldnt be working so hard for those 4 cents out of every dollar that an FRN is really worth–sending a 3rd of it away to the
City of London via the IRS.
So, robert, if the average Joe isnt willing to do that–then they shouldn burden themselves with reality, and they dont need you trying to wake them up.
After listening to the whole podcast last night I decided to watch a few episodes of “The Prisoner” since I was riled up after the talk. I’m sure many if not all Gnostic Media subscribers know the show. For me its an essential reference point and useful tool in navigating the false/real world of psyop/mindcontrol and how is one to combat a seemingly total and pervasive set up.
One episode in particular (link below) deals with rejecting conformity as a act of sanity, and the pressures and dark machinations of controlling elites who put “unmutual” thinking rebels through “social conversion”.
“A Change of Mind” –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMz9xqNgMM4
The original run is free in various places around the tubes.
When I first saw The Prisoner on PBS as a teenager in the 80s, I thought the show was just a weird 60s psychedelic take on the spy genre. I watch it now and I see that Patrick McGoohan was onto something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyL-f-SU_XA
The Village is the “perfect blueprint for world order.”
I have to admit, I usually listen to “conspiracy” solely for the comedic value. This one seems pretty believable. How would one file a FOIA request against Edward Bernays? He’s been dead since 1995, so I couldn’t imagine it getting denied. Also, I do assume half of anything the gov’t says is bullshit, but it’s always interesting to look between the words.
Why would conspiracy be for comedic value? I don’t get it. Wouldn’t it be easier to just fact check the information and see if it’s true or not yourself? An appeal to ridicule, or comedic value, is this argument: “You’re wrong because hahahahaha”.
Now that’s what I call comedic value.
However, if someone is a good researcher, they should provide you their citations, which you should easily be able to check point by point and verify their truth, and then there’s no need for fallacious dismissals of the information simply because it doesn’t jive with something someone else told you that you also didn’t verify – such as the main stream media typically uses the term “conspiracy theory” to dismiss and ridicule any informaiton they find disfavorable about them or the government. People have been trained to react to this – when in fact such an attack does not address the information whatsoever, and just appeals to ridicule, or name calling “conspiracy theorist”. That’s like saying that “you’re wrong, Alex, because you own a computer”. Such attacks, or lies, should clue you in as to when to verify and fact check information, not further dismiss it. What the hell does name calling or laughing have to do with anything? One must always use their critical thinking skills to look up information and verify it themselves, point by point. Approach everything as 85% of what you know is complete bullshit and that you’re incompetent and then work from there. Then you can always be sure of yourself having verified each step for yourself.
Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification, and logical fallacies – from Latin, fallare – to lie, is how we lie to ourselves and others, rather than verifying information and seeking the truth. “You’re gay, you’re republican, you’re a conspiracy theorist, you wear blue jeans, therefore you’re wrong and retarded, hahahaha” – doesn’t that sound about as stupid as it gets?
See the trivium study section to the left. You may find it of value.
Enjoy.
I came across this summary of the U.S. FOIA :
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-use-freedom-of-information-32508.html
In particular:
“Who Can Make a FOIA Request?
Anyone, anywhere, and for any reason can make a FOIA request, including individuals (citizens and foreigners), corporations and other business entities, foreign governments (with some exceptions), and media and nonprofit groups.”
Keep listening, youll DIE crying of laughter.
Thanks for sharing jan. I was struggling with a porn addiction, and until i came across
http://www.yourbrainonporn.com i did not quite understand why i was so mind controled by porn.
now i get it innergold.com another good website with scientific researched showing the process in detail. Here is one recent post.
Recently Harvard Health Publication published an article entitled, âHow Addiction Hijacks the Brain.â In this article it mentions that it is now a scientific consensus that âThe brain registers all pleasures in the same way, whether they originate with a psychoactive drug, a monetary reward, a sexual encounter, or a satisfying meal. In the brain, pleasure has a distinct signature: the release of the chemical neurotransmitter dopamine.â When we gain a better understanding of how our brain chemicals work and affect us then we can see how sexual addiction is indeed a chemical addiction.
The chemical dopamine is the âI got to have more of itâ chemical. Letâs take a look at how this chemical applies to sexual addiction issues, which include the viewing of pornography and chronic masturbation. When one begins a sexually acting out episode it begins in the brain with a stimulating thought. That thought can be generated from either a memory of a pleasurable experience or an environmental cue from outside the brain through the eye. It is also helpful to understand that as far as our senses go the human eye is the most powerful. Or as author John Median in his book, âBrain Rulesâ states, âVisual perception doesnât just assist in the perception of our world. It dominates the perception of our world.â In either case a burst of dopamine is released which leads one to automatically seek more of it. That is just the way our brains work.
The limbic region of the brain simply works on the premise of avoiding pain and seeking pleasure. Unless it is managed by the higher function brain â the neocortex and more specifically the pre-frontal cortex it can run wild and hijack the rational part of the brain. One of the things that is critical to understand about the limbic survival part of the brain is that it has no morals or values. These higher functioning and more evolved attributes work through the higher functioning rational part of the brain â the pre-frontal cortex. In essence we have two brains that work in concert with each other. This is why it is so critical to become better educated as to what we allow into our minds and why pornography addiction has become a major mental health issue of our day. Pornography simply hijacks the rational part of the brain and can lead one into behaviors that are confusing and hard to make sense of. Recently, as I was counseling a 17 year old boy in my office he seemed to want to claw at his brain to get the images out of his head that he had recently seen viewing pornography.
In his own words he said,
âThe images that I have seen are so disturbing that I literally feel physically sick when I think about them. I want to get them out of my head but I canât.â
As a society we need to become better educated as to what are children are being subjected to. We need to better understand the level and seriousness of what people have begun to do in an open manner. For those who produce and participate in the making of any type of pornographic material they have allowed the limbic part of their brains to take over. The problem with the limbic system is that it really doesnât have any moral boundaries. It simply wants more and more and makes one more thirsty until it leaves one exhausted and empty.
Which leads to the statement,
âOne can never get enough of what one doesnât need, because what one doesnât need will never fully satisfy them.â
It is one of the saddest tales of our current world that other wise decent human beings have been manipulated and exploited to descend to levels behaviorally where they do things sexually with each other that primitive animals donât even do.
When we better understand that this is a chemical addiction, then people might take it more seriously.
Research has indicated that the likelihood of something becoming an addiction is directly related to three things.
1.The speed with which the activity promotes dopamine release,
2.The intensity of that release and
3.The reliability of that release.
Nothing hits these three main areas like pornography. The reason that this is the greatest exploiter of mankind is that we are sexual beings by nature. We by nature are interested in sexuality. But unless it is restrained by values and morals we become less that the beasts of the field.
On the other hand, it is one of the most amazing things that one can change and if one gets away and then stays away from this material and activity the brain can heal. Sexual addictions do not need to remain concealed within ones self, tearing their life apart. There is hope and healing from sex addictions.
I always preferred the real thing, myself.
Thank you for this comment. I agree with you and I am trying to get over this too. Granted, I have made much progress, but kicking porn is really really really hard. There’s no logic to it, I know it’s bad, but I go back to it periodically. There are many other negative things linked to this : the loss/waste of sperm and zinc and low sperm quality (and the mainstream tells us regular masturbation is good and healthy), the inability to make love with a real person…
It’s true that one needs to be more careful about what children (and adults) see. My parents tried, but I always found ways around it. Because of seeing horrid films like Night of the Living Dead as a seven year old, 25 years later, I am still having nightmares about hoards of cannibals wanting to eat me alive. I can’t tell you how awful these nightmares are.
I see porn in the same way, but a different kind of anxiety. Not fear, something else, that I have trouble articulating.
Je vous remercie beaucoup. Salut de Montréal.
Fascinating, as usual. Especially the talk involving the connections between acclimating people to a post-apocalyptic (i.e., post-industrial) society and the culture of fashion and music. It makes me wonder if the current trend of tattooing is an expression of nihilism and a return to primitivism.
Jan, if you feel inclined, check out the movie Cloud Atlas. An interesting view of the NWO and a post-apocalyptic culture.
Thanks.
Brilliant conversation!
And without diminshing any of you other guys, I think that Joseph Atwill stands as one solid rock of convincing intellectual power with eminent historical luggage and ability to use and combine.
Yet another brilliant Gnostic Media production thanks to Jan Irwin.
You may want to look into two persons, that come into my mind here, both seeking the answer to the question of the agenda of WW1. And as you all point out in this conversation: the official narrative does not make any sense.
One is the major poet of the 20th century, the man that really invented modern poetry: Ezra Pound. All his friends died in the trenches and he set out to find out why. And he did. As a response to that – and he was a highly influential figure with four of his famous pupils receiving the Nobel Price of Litterature which he did not receive – he was targetted and ‘gamed’ by Roosewelt and send to a mental asylum for the rest of his days the same way, Stalin would have done to his critics. Moreover he was labelled a fascist.
The other one is the contemporary British historian, Terry Boardman. He digs deep down into the causes and webs of the British elite. Just as Atwill describes, this elite has an agenda, a long term plan, and none of what they do is random. They are not fools. WW1 was planned at least 25 years ahead. Moreover this mother of all contemporary wars was prolonged deliberately by the British elite, that refused to end the war, when the German emperor held out his hand for a peace solution. The plan was from the beginning the smash Germany.
There are two long and very intense video lectures by Terry Boardman on youtube. In the first of them he builds up an astonishint narrative around the legendary figure, Kaspar Hauser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbzJH0Y4Qts
In the second one he describes the British empires ancient relation to China, and what the masterplan of the whole empire-project is: conquering the Heartland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhnzUkoMSfk&feature=relmfu
If this doesn’t ring a bell, do check it out.
Thank you for drawing attention to Boardman’s ideas, Morten. On the strength of this I just read his Axiomata and Metanoia â Changing Our Minds in the 21st Century at http://threeman.org/?p=887
I really found it very interesting, an intelligent analysis.
What he says about Confucian and Taoist (I would write Daoist) influences on Europe mediated by Jesuit scholars is a valuable insight worthy of deep thought.
Boardman is obviously a student and follower of Rudolph Steiner’s anthroposophical teachings, and having studied Waldorf education at Plymouth University, although I respect Steiner’s integrity, I cannot follow his lead all the way back to Golgotha and beyond.
That said, Terry Boardman seems to have drawn coherent inspiration from Steiner’s prolific output, estimated to be around 12,000 pages including lecture transcripts.
As for Pound, I am not qualified to have aan opinion as such, he appears to me to be a rather tragic figure, who ended up regretting everything, particularly his Jew hatred. The Canadian “people’s poet” Milton Acorn characterised him as given to pretension, “the fascist poet, Ezra Pound, Who continues to pass off his preposterous common and dull Cantos as very profound…” and Milton was certainly a great poet and man of the people.
Pound had his admirers though, despite everything ~ legendary individuals like Hemingway, for example.
Please check out gnostic media podcast, #45 and #46 A bona Fide Conspiracy? – an interview with Eustice Mullins
The last living protege of Ezra Pound
Eustice Mullins has since passed away
Jose, thanks. I’ve already heard those & most of Jan’s conversations over time. As a result of your suggestion, I’m listening to a fabulous talk with Eustice Mullins and George Whitehurst Berry in ‘Crash, Are You Ready?!’ on Ezra Pound “and his Nobel prize winning protĂ©gĂ©s Ernest Hemingway, William Butler Yeats and T.S. Eliot, and James Joyce. Broadcasted December 28, 2007″ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=oUUFuFdGKwY&NR=1
I have to say it is consummately interesting.
Milton Acorn the “people’s poet” was staunchly socialist. A wonderful man and a legendary figure. I had many long conversations (and occasional disagreements) with him. He was one of the most extraordinary Canadians I met during 22 years in the country. In fact I prepared his papers for collection by the National Archive in 1985ce.
I appreciate your response.
I’m having some technical problems downloading etc but have managed to hear some of this, that is certainly full of rich content.
I have been tuning in to some of Christopher Hitchens’ online debates lately and am currently listening to one held at the Goethe Institute ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3doYSqBWhZI
(Published on 26 Jul 2012)
“In Among the Dead Cities author A.C. Grayling examines the morality of Allied air attacks on civilians during WWII. He is joined by Christopher Hitchens, the author of Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays to debate whether the targeting of civilians can be justified in times of war. This event was hosted by the Goethe-Institut in Washington, DC.”
I feel sure many of your listeners would find this worthwhile.
Managed to hear almost the whole thing now, have to constantly reset from scratch.
You know this entire narrative is the story of capitalism, of empire. The idea is to turn everything into profit no matter what. Religion, industry, war ~ it’s all about power, control and gain. Human ego. Old Ozymandias.
I must take slight issue with Joseph on Constantine, as I was corrected recently about this and told, not he but Theodosius who made “Nicene christianity” the official religious cult of the entire empire.
Look what’s been happening all over the world since Nagasaki throughout the cold war right up to the latest miracles of Arab self-immolation to China’s metamorphosis ~ its all about marketing complete shit. Whether it’s paradise whores, “vatican virgins,” glitterati kitsch or GMO’s. Pollute something, lie about it, exploit it, package it, peddle it. Check out Hitchen’s exposes of Kissinger and the “beatified” Mother Theresa witch.
What Bernays orchestrated in Guatamala should be enough for most strong stomachs.
All puppeteers have greater puppeteers pulling their strings ad infinitum, it’s the inverse story of the lesser fleas.
We should not attribute perfect infallibility to these master magicians. After all once you get to be the only Devil, any god seems pretty inconsequential. The law of unintended consequences still prevails. What the venal powers do, is continually adjust to blow-back, control the opposition, constantly reap the whirlwind. Peter Dale Scott covers it pretty thoroughly.
It’s that old story of the sorceror’s apprentice again. Right now though, the stakes are higher than ever before.
Seems to me the idea is to furnish the entire population with every conceivable type of lethal weapon and mind altering mayhem, let global anarchy prevail. Who’s got the biggest bunkers? The best satellites? Supply lines? Mercenary armies? Complicit narco-terror gangs? Slick PR lawyers?
We shall see.
“You know this entire narrative is the story of capitalism, of empire. The idea is to turn everything into profit no matter what. Religion, industry, war ~ itâs all about power, control and gain. Human ego. Old Ozymandias.”
You’re a moron. You use “capitalism” to mean almost any social phenomena or human behavior that you don’t like, as a curse word, in the same way that cultural marxists use the term “nazi.” Your word cloud fails to conceal your derelict of terms.
dereliction of terms (typo)
Capital, kap’it-al, adj. relating to the head: involving the loss of the head: chief : principal: excellent…etc. n. the head or top part of a column or pillar…the chief or most important thing…
Buckminster Fuller traces the meaning of capitalism with respect to business and cumulation of capital, to cattle.
Moron (psychology)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Moron is a term once used in psychology to denote mild mental retardation. The term was closely tied with the American eugenics movement. Once the term became popularized, it fell out of use by the psychological community, as it was used more commonly as an insult than as a psychological term.
Origin and uses
“Moron” was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard from the Ancient Greek word ÎŒÏÏÏÏ (moros), which meant “dull” (as opposed to oxy, which meant “sharp” (see also: oxymoron)), and used to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. It was once applied to people with an IQ of 51â70, being superior in one degree to “imbecile” (IQ of 26â50) and superior in two degrees to “idiot” (IQ of 0â25). The word moron, along with others including, “idiotic”, “imbecilic”, “stupid”, and “feeble-minded”, was formerly considered a valid descriptor in the psychological community, but it is now deprecated in use by psychologists.
Following opposition to Goddard’s attempts to popularize his ideas,Goddard recanted his earlier assertions about the moron: “It may still be objected that moron parents are likely to have imbecile or idiot children. There is not much evidence that this is the case. The danger is probably negligible.”
How do your quotes about capitalism, above, relate to your sweeping generalization:
âYou know this entire narrative is the story of capitalism, of empire. The idea is to turn everything into profit no matter what. Religion, industry, war ~ itâs all about power, control and gain. Human ego. Old Ozymandias.â
And with your quote about morons you seem to be digging a deeper hole for yourself. On both points you again spew words without regard to actually engaging in the discussion.
I’d be interested to know what you think of this http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-world-order-conspiracy-theories-diversions-and-deceptions/5314429
Also Boris Malagurski’s film http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weight_of_Chains
Personally I do not subscribe to a single track theory of global dominance directed from one elite source. However, I do subscribe to the view that capital has been skyjacked by the dominance of the economic systems of the world by US banking interests, and that its abuse serves the ends of misplaced imperialist ambition.
In that respect I agree with Joseph Atwill’s analysis. I am not convinced though that Joe has got the complete story right as Acharya S. has pointed out. We run into confusing and arguably misleading interpretations when we abandon all esoteric philosophical perspectives, both historiographical and initiatory, and treat everything as one great cynical adventure.
If the trivium serves to educate our rational and cognitive functions, then I’m all for it. However as you point out very sensibly, it is a set of tools and while it does not determine the outcome of our creative ends or conscious intent, it may certainly temper our imaginary excesses and chasten our ethical means.
Just a post-script to the above. You may find Heathcote Williams’ docu-poem on the British royal family worth a view http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/royal-babylon/
I must say, for anyone of my national heritage, this requires a strong stomach, but it is equally hard to refute. I’m not proud of this history albeit in part, contextually limited; for it is largely a litany of atrocity, deception and abuse. For most of my life I have been a staunch opponent of the privileged fetish of christist superiority, fuelled as it is by extreme elitist hypocrisy and the most patronising crass ignorance.
So I have few illusions about the decadence of empire, and the conceits of pseudo-monarchs; but I am also certain we can do much better once we dispel the miasma of infallible “faith” in uncritically received, lunatic belief-systems.
Robert, you know better than to resort to ad hominems.
its not like hes incorrect in that statement!
Just a word or two on “shamanism.”
Ronald Hutton produced a pretty good summary in his Shamans: Siberian Spirituality and the Western Imagination [2001ce] But he was gracious enough to praise Andrei A Znamenski for his (2007ce) The Beauty of the Primitive ~ Shamanism and the Western Imagination, calling it “simply the best book on modern shamanisms ever written, largely because its author understands premodern shamanisms so well.”
Znamenski addresses Eliade’s “cross-cultural archetypes” for example, together with Jay Fikes’ work among many others. I remember Jan interviewing Robert Forte and the very interesting things he had to say about Eliade’s mutating attitude to “drugs.”
Personally I think LSD changed the game, because even agents of mind-control had their minds blown. The point is that LSD can also reinforce false perceptions, or totally disorientate or both.
There will always be comfort and solace in the conformity that certain norms can bestow; even when those norms are “psychedelically” constructed by the likes of Leary, or Kesey or McKenna. The smartest people soon understood the need for total psychic integration of psychoactive experiences ~ that drugs alone were insufficient agents of spiritual intelligence or instruments for moral navigation. Context was everything.
Robert 42 made a comment about the need for philosophical structure. I agree with that, but it must be for each individual to arrive at that realisation and seek their own means to accomplish it. Anything short of that is mind control of one kind or another.
As for those who may be incapable, or unwilling to exercise their sovereign intelligence, I believe it falls to those who have some idea, to guide and to educate.
Hence the virtue of this forum, may it grow in influence and wisdom.
Please concider this.
The info presented here is the key to why the 60′s generation fell from eyes opening dispite the trama based programing of assination to statist mind controlled consumers. My thoughts are seeing the reinforcement of this trama based programing occured with the murder of four of that generations own in Ohio. This broke the hippie movement subconsciously, and when Nixon eliminated the draft and ended action in Vietnam the generation of the 60′s and early 70′s were ripe to embrace the state and comply, comply, comply.
I state this due to my personal experience with family. I am 35. This is only an idea and have no evidence not availible free onn the internet.
Feed back most welcome
ya–the murderings of then, and now–serve to keep the herd in check, no doubt, while simutainiously creating MORE laws and MORE Govt to deal with said murders. And this will continue untill folks realize we have predators, were being preyed apon–and WHY.
the why is, our lack of self knowledge and our childlike trust in authority.
Nice Elly.
Yes the ppl have been brain washed to believe they already know everything, ” …because the TV told me.”, and that they can trust the government. This trust of govt. Comes from the broken family/absent father model in society, ppl believe since family ties were weak the govt bond I have must be strong, they don’t realize this is slvery because of school telling them otherwise.
My solution is that I try to share my knowledge of the Trivium with all I meet.
This was such a compelling video. Top-notch job fellas. Although, I think the topic of what can loosely be referred to as agrarianism (referred to as âthe archaic revivalâ within the video) deserves further elucidation. The three of you properly identify the glorification of the rustic which exist in the counter-culture (now New Age); and, I believe, accurately deduce and describe this as a psyop to prepare the general public from a shift away from a highly technological society. Joe Atwill goes on to say that the general public moving away from technology would only make it easier for them to be controlled by the âelitesâ. Continuing he says, âIf anything the general public should have more technologyâ. I couldnât agree more with this statement; because, at present, the average American has none . Allow me to explain. Most Americans are hopelessly dependent upon and subservient to the current food system. There has never been a time, such as the present, where so much of the average personâs daily food is purchased from a store and shipped from miles and miles away. At present, much of the population has lost their practical-ancestral-knowledge for raising or growing food. The average person out there knows virtually nothing about the basics of food production. A revival of local food production know-how, skills, and methods that arenât completely reliant upon purchased, highly-technological equipment couldnât be more needed.
Nowâfollowing the pattern observed by you gentlemenâonce the magnitude of the situation just described is made apparent to the individual, there are secondary âcatch websâ lying in wait to ensnare. These secondary âcatch websâ come in, what could be called, two distinct flavors (Here I do not mean to say there exist only two; but as I see it, these are the two most common.) They are the âNew Age, scour- the-dump-for-a-salvageable-replacement-door-hinge, emasculated male, communal living, vegan, save Gaiaâ or itâs dichotomy the âwilderness survivor, arsenal and bunker building, MRE stockpiling, canât-wait-to- dominate-and-pillage-others-apocalyptic-fantasyâ type. Now it must be said that reusing materials, being cognizant of the individuals connection with his environment, having a surplus stash of food, and being proficient with (not to mention owning) firearms are good things. But the work of paramount importance is making obsolete our current, insane food system by developing a sustainable local alternative; in essence, salvaging the older paradigm of small-scale, local production and consumption (i.e. Look forward to and help in constructing the transition instead of worrying about or fantasizing about a collapse).
This will not be done for us by the state. People should not waste time and resources lobbying for policies to make it easier and more profitable for food producers to grow and distribute in such a manner. Unfortunately, the interests of the state are tied to the consolidation and mechanistic ordering of society provided by industrialism. In other words: the bigger the industrialized farm, the more mechanized itâs production, equals the average citizen dependent upon the conglomerate, the less bartering between individuals, and an exceedingly low level of self-reliance.
Now would be as good a time as any to mention Berkleyâs own Theodore Roszak and his book âWhere the Wasteland Endsâ. As the author says in his preface, and I paraphrase, âthis is my attempt to intellectualize the ideas and concerns of the cultural revolution of the â60âsâ (book published 1972). I feel very ambivalent towards this book. Thereâs a lot of value in it, alongsideâas you should expect given the preceding sentenceâa lot of bunk. A large portion of the text is a critique on rampant Industrialization. What I suspect is going on here is appropriation of genuine concerns and then plunging these valid concerns into the mire. Although It would be hard to prove, I suspect a lot of what is of true value in this book was âinfluencedâ by the earlier âIâll Take My Stand: The South and the Agrarian Traditionâ by Twelve Southerners (1930) [For those interested, the introductory âStatement of Principlesâ can be found online at http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma01/White/anthology/agrarian.html ].
This leads me to the next topic Iâd like to address, the American Civil War. I particularly enjoyed the moments in the round-table that concerned this topic. As the three of you made clear, there were various reasons for it; all of which are obfuscated by what has come to be the cover storyâthe righteous campaign to âFree the slavesâ. Population control, the consolidation of the State, the disenfranchisement and destruction of the Southern landed aristocracy, the parallel disenfranchisement and destruction of the Southern middle-class Yeoman farmer (small-scale farmer that relied predominately on family labor), facilitating the economic pillaging that subsequently followed the conflict are all some of the real reasons. But the true reason that concerns me here is: the destruction of the Southern Agrarian Tradition and way of life (of course, it must be said, all these reason are interrelated). The South was inundated with self-reliant people; or , as I should say, families and communities (One would be hard pressed to live, meet subsistence needs, by oneâs efforts alone). This area of the country was predominantly resistant to the industrialization that so favors the consolidation of power that the government desired. Therefore it had to be destroyed to make way for the new model of control.
This leads me to my final talking point, the concept of âFreedomâ. Freedom is a prime example of a talismanic word. I rather detest it (I might ask Freedom from just what exactly?) A word much more suited to those of us wanting to get out from under the heel of oppression would be âautonomyâ, or autonomy at the smallest scale possible. Iâm sorry but open-ended freedom does not and will not exist, bear with me here. âAutonomyâ, on the other hand, is much less abstract âand can actually occurâbut an autonomous state of being cannot be achieved by the individualâŠalone. If self-governing means anything practical at all it means being able to physically subsist by oneâs own labors. Now it might be possible today for one man to be able to produce all the necessities of life (i.e. food) on a piece of land, with the aid of machines. But if he is so dependent on those machines (and all their subsequent dependencies such as gas, oil, parts) could we really refer to him as autonomous? No. But an autonomous state of being (meeting psychical subsistence needs) can be reached by a group of people without the aid of highly-specialized mechanized equipment. Now Iâm not advocating that people rigidly abstain from mechanized equipment as evil and go learn methods of food-production from the Amish; but we should recognize the inherent dependence (dependence begets subservience) that results from reliance on highly-specialized equipment. In other words, technology should develop curtailed to this truth, so as to move away from complete dependence. It should also be kept in mind that autonomy rest in the small-scale community proper; where local food production by multiple persons results in a closed loop. All of what Iâve said is far from revolutionary, if anything its reclamation, and could, to some extent, be called Jeffersonian.
I hope Iâve done a decent job in explaining my understanding of why this disseminated romanticized view of the âarchaicâ exist (I would be amiss if I didnât note that archaic denotes: âno longer applicableâ. In other words, for the fringes that desire to walk off into cognitive dissonance, or so âtheyâ WILL). Its purpose is to intermingle the natural inclination for an organic life (which would be sane, happy, and not least of all healthy) with progressivist lies. The agenda (at large), I think, has been to destroy regionally and culturally distinct communities (which is now virtually complete. You may call your cookie-cutter suburban neighborhood with the local Kroger a community; but that doesnât make it one. A true community, worthy of the term, is grounded to the soil and to a place; where the members are cognizant of the reciprocal needs of each other. And where the occupational efforts actually amount to true wealthâŠfoodstuffs) and then pull the plug on the vague, face-less industrial society that replaced it; sit back and watch as the population helplessly âreducesâ . To conclude, I will say that the recognition of this agenda is not entirely discouraging. It shows there exist in the general population an innate desire for an authentic life (removed from the artificial). And that this desire must be âmanagedâ by the âcontrollersâ. Their efforts have merely been a shallow appropriation of no real substance (that is to say their psychological efforts. Their physical efforts have obviously been devastating). It wouldnât take all that much to channel this energy into its proper corridor.
Very much enjoyed that. I like taking a central theme and then allowing an open ended conversation to flow out from it. The analogy of reality TV as modern Roman Coliseum was outstanding.
Looking forward to where this all might go.